\r\n \r\n They US population is aging and thus, on average, needing more care. The nursing schools are full. They can not hire more faculty because typically the school they are embedded in puts a cap on salaries at different levels so it is hard to get someone into teaching - you need experience and advanced degrees. On the other hand, the faculty is aging and retiring.
\n
\nBill\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Where\'s that? I\'m moving there. I\'m in nursing school now, and we\'ve been told that on graduation we can expect to make about 18 bucks an hour here in central NC, though the pay increases quite a lot after one to three years.
\n
\n-' + '-Patti\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n I suggest Baumol\'s idea of the "cost disease" is a theory that goes some step to explaining why one might have the above impressions.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n The pay is a lot higher in high rent areas...but not enough to compensate for the high rent. An RN here in the SF bay area gets about 35 dollars an hour... the next step up, a \'nurse practitioner\' 60 to 80 dollars an hour.
\n
\nA one bedroom apt here though rents for 1500 dollars in an older building, 2,000 dollars and up in a newer or high rise building.
\n
\nThe demand for RN\'s however will go up fast. there is already a shortage.
\n
\nMy advice, get some added qualifications and skill sets to add to your resume. You have made a good career choice. that work cannot be moved offshore at least.
\n
\nPhil Scott\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Once the libertarians in the GOP kill off the entitlement programs, those newly-minted health care workers will be out of a job.
\n
\n-' + '-
\nHow can the economy be improving when real wages are down $600 million and the number of American people in poverty has increased 14 percent since 2000?
\n
\nhttps://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf, pg 53\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n So a nurse practitioner working only 40 hrs a week at $80/hr ===> $167K a year, and with all the benefits paid for!! no malpractice insurance either... so is it true then that nurses are making more than doctors??? i know doctors are not hourly workers so they don\'t get paid by the hour...
\n
\nNo wonder nursing schools are full...\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Phil Scott wrote:
\nDon\'t bet on that:
\n
\nhttps://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus...0512101115.htm\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n fascinatin\' ain\'t it?
\n
\n
\nEngineering has already gone that way extensively... lately though there has been a faint reversal (not much but some), of hiring back out of work US engineers. I guess the powers that be have decided that they didnt want to have to rely exclusively on the Islamic/ muslim nations to build and operate our infrastructure given. These seem happy with depending on communist china to build much of our military electronics. Thats hot.
\n
\n
\nThis fast developing trend of sending US medical patients to india and china will increase dramatically as our own US govt cannot afford pay its lush pensions and 100% medical care to a retired civil service that outnumbers working civil service two to three to one. Already behind the scenes in most state of calif offices is an army of green card people (not at the front desks where they meet the public, but in the back offices..).
\n
\nIt will not however be possible to fly that much long term care to India, so the demand for nurses in the US will continue to increase...but yes, this move to outsource patients will cut into their pay rates...also there is little impediment to using green card nurses in the US, that is already pervasively comon, mostly from the Philipines as it stands now.
\n
\nMy personal solution after getting an up close and personal look at what US medicine has to offer ..was to study up on preventive and restorative measures and avoid the entire disaster as long as possible. That has worked out well so far, at age 64 I am one of the worlds oldest flat track motorcycle racers...and sharp too.
\n
\nPhil Scott\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n $167K is highly unlikely. A typical Nurse Practitioner or Physician Assistant with experience will be in the neighborhood of $75,000 - $85,000 per year. Might be a little higher on the coasts. Some specialized PA\'s, such as Orthopedic PA\'s might do considerably better, but even in that circumstance, $167,000 per year would be highly unusual.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n The nurse practitioner I met in 1995, 10 years ago, was getting 65 dollars an hour. Physicians assistant might describe a less skilled person in some areas.
\n
\nPhil Scott\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Highly unlikely. Certainly so for a Nurse Practitioner in clinical practice.
\n
\nPA\'s and NP\'s in clinical practice are basically on the same pay scale for primary care specialties. The money for "physician extenders" is in the surgical specialities and it is less common to find NP\'s in the operating room. Generally, Physician Assistants have a higher median salary than Nurse Practitioners.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n There\'s little doubt that four years of med school plus three years of residency provides greater education than two years of NP school beyond a bachelor\'s degree.
\n
\nThe rules governing NP practice vary state by state. The boards of nursing in each state set the licensure requirements and make rules regarding standard nursing practice, and also rules governing advanced practice nurses (like whether NPs can write prescriptions with or without supervision, and whether there are limitations to their Rx rights). Here in NC, NPs can write Rx under the supervision of a doc. The doc\'s name is on their Rx pad, but he/she doesn\'t have to sign. There are a few states that don\'t require NPs to have any physician supervision, and in other states they can\'t write scrips at all. PAs and other health pros aren\'t governed by the state boards of nursing. I\'m not sure whose bailiwick that is, or what the rules are in their regard.
\n
\n-' + '-Patti\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Aren\'t nurse practitioners more educated than physician assistants? I\'ve seen physician assistants who have just a bachelor\'s degree, whereas every nurse practitioner I know holds a master\'s degree. Besides, it seems that a nurse practitioner has more autonomy than a physician assistant. A nurse practitioner can set up shop anywhere by themselves, compared to a physician assistant who - by definition - assists a physician and is required by law to be supervised by a physician. I know many pharmacies will not honor a prescription written by a physician assistant unless it\'s countersigned by a supervising physician. Anyhow, I believe that if a patient wants to see a doctor and all they get is an assistant, then maybe the patient or whoever pays the bill should get a hefty discount (there is a big difference between a real M.D. and a less educated assistant, and everybody knows it...)\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n When it comes to new techniques and both are inexperienced then education and theoretical knowledge is very much relevant. Unfortunately you run into "you can\'t teach old dogs new tricks" comes into place. Experience vs evidenced based medicine is at odds. As a teacher, I have problem with both groups and can see the good and the bad from both. When something new comes along I have trouble with the old experienced people picking it up and when something classically old is seen then the inexperienced have trouble seeing it.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n I have 2 daughters who are nurses of multiple years, now working in hospitals.
\r\nNeither makes $85,000 a yr, much less $167K.
\r\nOne is still paying off Gov student loans which were extensive. Plus, at times
\r\nadditional newly updated courses are required for License renewal.\r\n

\r\n __________________
\r\n May you always have..Love to Share, Health to Spare, and Friends that Care!\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Sure. Practical knowledge/experience is often more important than formal education/theoretical knowledge. That scenario has numerous corollaries in a wide variety of professions over hundreds of years; the Platoon Sergeant vs his brand-new 2nd Lieutenant, the experienced surgical PA vs his/her supervising surgeon just out of residency. Nothing new or particularly revelatory about any of that.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n And then there are the real heroes: the nurse\'s who ran the Arctic nursing stations prior to the 80s. They did everything. I mean "everything", and were scathingly contemptuous of the newly-minted physicians doing a rotation in the north for northern services who would be flown in for clinics a week out of 52. I\'ve seen those young men examining a patient, with the nurse watching them, and then privately and desperately asking her what he should do and how he should do it. Those women were formidable. They had it all over the physicians, but for pay, and status.
\n
\nNow: https://www.wildmed.com/newsletter/on_his_own.html\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Some states do require an advanced degree (MS) to be licensed as an NP. That doesn\'t translate to more salary, however. Nurse Practitioners are almost universally relegated to primary care roles since that\'s about the only training they get, whereas PAs do virtually anything in medicine - their training includes rotations in all of the major specialities. The scope of the PA\'s license generally encompasses anything their supervising physician is willing to accept responsibility for. NP\'s are more rigidly limited by their license. It would be unusual to ever find an NP in the Emergency Department taking primary care of emergencies, or in the Operating Room, for example, but those are common roles for PA\'s. And as is true in all of medicine, procedural specialties are more highly reimbursed and consequently PA\'s, especially surgical PA\'s, tend to get paid more than NP\'s, who are primary care only, even if they set up their own independant practice if that\'s allowed by their state.
\n
\nMost insurance companies don\'t pay as much for a patient being cared for by a PA or NP as they do for seeing a real doctor in a primary care role. And my PA can\'t bill as high a surgical assist fee from some (not all) insurance companies as one of my partner\'s can. The difference, if there is one, is not that great, however. An MD assistant would bill (or insurance companies typically reimburse) 17% of the surgeon\'s fee, whereas a PA might only be able to bill 12-15%. Anyway, that direct reimbursement doesn\'t represent my PA\'s real value to me - her value is that I can scrub out and start the next case while she is closing the first one, or that she can see my post-op patients (which we don\'t get paid for) which frees my schedule to see new consults. These are not things that a NP could do for me.
\n
\nThe rules of practice/scope of license also vary by state. In most, neither PA\'s nor NPs have to have their orders or prescriptions co-signed.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n By the way, there are other areas of Advanced Practice Nursing beyond Nurse Practitioner. Perhaps the best-known of these are Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNA). They are a different kettle of fish altogether. In many states, they (like NP\'s) can practice independantly and don\'t require physician supervision. *Unlike* NP\'s it would not be even remotely unusual for a CRNA to be getting paid well over $100,000 per year.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Interesting analogy: the military and medicine.
\n
\nNot part of this discussion but also interesting is that all of this, my story and the web story-' + '-the Twin Otter, the pilot, the medivac nurse, the nursing station nurse, and a third party to accompany, equipment, nursing station staff, flight deadhead: all paid for by Canada\'s universal healthcare system.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n For comparison. They also actively seek summer replacements. The north is a fantastic for single women; and for kids.
\nhttps://www.hlthss.gov.nt.ca/Careers/.../nursejobs.asp\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Yes. Thank god for you Robert. You\'re the glue that holds the whole system and its benighted participants together.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Hierarchies exist everywhere, in almost every field of human endeavor. Occasional anomalies within those hierarchies are inevitable.
\n
\nHMc\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Just saying some of us get it from all sides. The young have the excuse of being inexperienced and the old are just buying time to retire and are on cruise control.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Back to the original question. Why are there so many job openings in the healthcare arena.
\r\n
\r\nPart of the reason is that our current state of medical care and environmental toxicit creates further disease that requires treatment. Since they don\'t really know how to cure anything they just layer disease upon disease.
\r\n
\r\nNo education is given to diet, exercise or how to avoid the use of drugs. No education is given internally cleaning the body.
\r\n
\r\nAll drugs cause disease. I you don\'t believe me just look at any drug in a Physicians Desk Reference. So now a whole new world of disease is created by prescribed medicines.
\r\n
\r\nCandida infection is now rampant in our country, (USA) from overuse of antibiotics and steriods. Candida is behind many allergy and fatigue problems and may be behind some cancers or other chronic malfunctions as the body struggles to adapt to this fungus the immune system is stressed.
\r\n
\r\nWe also have more disease and need for healthcare workers because our world has become so toxic that cancer and other chronic disease have become common place.
\r\n
\r\nThe more drugs, the more toxicity, the more belief that drugs will solve the problem the more healthcare practitioners you will need. Everyone seems to want to put the responsibility for heath into the hands of someone other than themselves. They can sit and slouch all day, drink beer, use pesticides, take antibiotics, never go in the sun, watch violence on tv, take artificial sweeteners, use aluminum pots, eat processed foods with chemical additives, drink flouradated water and then dare to wonder why they get sick and then think they should be able to pay somebody to fix it.
\r\n
\r\nAmazing!\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Amazing!!!
\r\n
\r\nGood answer, that about sums it up. I would say the bottom line is that the drug companies need an outlet for their drug sales. So the medical profession grows to meet that demand. And the more it grows, the more toxic drugs we consume, the sicker we get, and the more health care we need. It\'s an endless cycle of growth.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n 100 times more powerful, 1,000 times safer.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n I am weary tonight. Go for it Shapshfter!
\r\n
\r\nWarmly,
\r\nArrow\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n We live in a "Debt Based Economy"
\r\n
\r\nIn other words, the more debt, the more money will be printed,
\r\ntherefore, the more "expansion" of the economy....blah, blah, blah.
\r\n
\r\nI\'m not trying to change this forum, but the current, easiest way
\r\nto "expand" (read, print money) is to play the health care card.
\r\n
\r\nAfter all, we are all getting older, and we all know that old people
\r\nneed doctors, drugs, hospitals, nursing homes, etc.
\r\n
\r\nUntil the politicos come up with a better card to play, go for the
\r\nhealth care industry.
\r\n
\r\nIn the 60\'s, it was the aerospace industry. (let\'s go to the moon)
\r\n
\r\nIn the 70\'s, it was the military industry, (let\'s go to war-Vietmnam)
\r\n
\r\nIn the 80-90\'s, it was the internet. (let\'s get online)
\r\n
\r\nNow we\'re back to war and technology. Nano everything.
\r\n(could be a indication of things to come)
\r\n
\r\nHealth care seems safe for a few years. Take the money & run!\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Well its pretty simple...the whole population is just growing older and older, nobody is dying off like they used to. Plus, medical field jobs now are so high tech and the training, or in a doctors case medical schooling can take years, and put people in debt before the even find a job, plus its super stressful, because your dealing with someones life in your hands. Your always worried if someone is going to sue the pants off of you and ruin you. I know I wouldnt want anything to do with the medical field! What a nightmare profession.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Funny how much has changed since this topic was first written. The idea of there being a shortage of nurses is now not true. Hospitals are under a hiring freeze. To even think about a nursing job now you will need a 4 year RN degree and three years experience. LPN\'s are not even used anymore. CNA\'s make around 9 dollars an hour. Many people think I am crazy say all this about there being no jobs. Go to the forums and read what people are saying today. I was shocked to find all this out.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n I guess hospitals are on budgets just like the rest of us. Plus with so many people out of work
\n& having no Health Insurance, hospitals have to foot the bills for them.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n

\r\n \r\n Good point. I had to go to the doctor recently and he asked me who my primary care Physician was, I told him the emergency room.\r\n

\r\n <!-' + '- controls -' + '->\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n <!-' + '- / controls -' + '->\r\n