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Old 06-16-2009, 07:52 PM
mayers mayers is offline
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Default Hidden Risks and Dangers of the Marshall Protocol

[i]“The human body does not require sunlight, nor foods containing Vitamin D, in order for it to function correctly. The human body can manufacture all the Vitamin D it needs from its own 7-dehydrocholesterol. Clinical medicine is just plain wrong on its understanding of the actions of Vitamin D.” Trevor Marshall

The Marshall Protocol (MP), which claims to cure CFS and FM, is a very polarizing topic. People are either really for it, or really against it. Seduced by the molecular modeling and hope of a cure, I was on the protocol for almost two years. However, after almost landing in ER and experiencing a permanent deterioration in all my CFS symptoms, I have learnt first-hand of the dangers and risks of the MP, none of which I was warned. The MP worsened my existing CFS symptoms such as fatigue, sleep dysfunction, muscle and joint pain and created new symptoms such as neuropathy, parenthesisa, breathing difficulties, cardiac pain and tinnitus which have persisted. Thus I feel that it is my duty to warn others who may be considering the MP, which continues to attract many new patients, of all the hidden risks so that they can make a fully informed decision about whether to undertake this protocol.

The Marshall Protocol claims to be a curative treatment for illnesses caused by cell wall deficient bacteria. Given that various credible researchers such as Nicholson and De Meirleir have found mycoplasma in between 50-68% of CFS and FM patients, the MP seems to be a logical treatment option.[ii] (However it is unclear whether mycoplasma are the causative agent for CFS or FM or a secondary infection.) However, just because mycoplasma may be involved in your condition, it does not necessarily follow that the Marshall Protocol is either a safe or effective therapy.

Invented by electrical engineer Trevor Marshall PhD, the Marshall Protocol was initially designed for the treatment of sarcoidosis, a Th1 disease in which granulomas form in the lungs and where vitamin D pathways appear to be deregulated (this is generally not the case with CFS). The treatment is based on the premise that 25 vitamin D is immunosuppressive, that the cell wall deficient bacteria are converting excessive amounts of it into 1,25 vitamin D which creates inflammation in the body and thus disease symptoms. Consequently the Marshall Protocol advocates:

1. Eliminating exogenous sources of vitamin D including both dietary and sunshine. (This is includes blocking windows and installing low watt globes).
2. The use of Benicar in high doses which partially blocks the vitamin D receptor and inhibits certain inflammatory processes.
3. The use of different combinations of low pulsed antibiotics in order to eliminate the bacteria.
The elimination of vitamin D in tandem with the use of Benicar is claimed to switch on the innate immune system so that it ‘sees’ the bacteria. Marshall claims that the antibiotics don't directly kill the bacteria, but merely latch on to their RNA subunits, weakening them, and allowing the immune system to eliminate them. This theory, none of the elements of which have ever been tested in a lab, has since been rolled out to all autoimmune diseases as well as CFS and FM all of which Marshall claims are Th1 conditions and thus have the same pathogenesis and can all be cure by his protocol.

Who is Trevor Marshall?

Before I tackle the safety of the MP directly I think there is value in having a look at who Trevor Marshall is as the protocol has been wholly created by him and is not endorsed by any other researcher. While there has been some interest in his theories lately, there is little support in the biomedical or molecular modeling communities for the protocol to be applied to patients in its present form.

Trevor Marshall trained as an electrical engineer and did his PhD thesis with the Department of Electrical Engineering on modeling insulin production and flows in diabetic patients (using mathematical equations). Although he spent some time in the early 1980s modeling reproductive hormones, he spent most of his career working on electronic engineering and IT, including running YARC, a printer technology company, from 1988 until its bankruptcy in 2000. During this time YARC, headed by Marshall, was involved in over a dozen litigations at the Superior Court of California, predominantly as the defendant. The most interesting being Joseph La Bruna v. YARC Systems Corporation (2001) where the court found that Marshall “made representations and promises and concealed and omitted the true facts knowing such representations, promises and concealments and omissions to be false. They were made with the intention of deceiving, defrauding and misleading the plaintiff, and to induce him to act in reliance thereon.”[iii]

After YARC went bankrupt, Marshall devoted himself to reading as much as he could on sarcoidosis, from which he suffered, and devised the Marshall Protocol in order to rid himself of the disease. After he and a small group of other sarcoidosis patients began noting improvements in their condition, Trevor Marshall decided to create a study site on the web for other sarcoidosis patients in 2002 and then in 2004 decided that all autoimmune illnesses, as well as CFS and FM, were Th1 illness and had the same pathogenesis as sarcoidosis and opened the study site up to all these conditions.

It is important to note that Trevor Marshall has little research experience in chronic illnesses and no formal training or research experience in microbiology, biochemistry or drug administration. While Trevor Marshall promotes himself as a Biochemical Engineer his PhD was in electrical engineering and consists of many equations modeling the effects of insulin in diabetic patients. His area of expertise is computer modeling, rather than medicine. His understanding of immunology is based on his own readings of various scientific literature.

How was the Marshall Protocol devised?

Trevor Marshall devised the protocol in order to treat his own sarcoidosis. He read into the discipline as an outsider and created a theory from his own research and personal experiences. He then wrote a computer model based on his research. The current Marshall Protocol is an extrapolation of the sarcoidosis theory to all autoimmune conditions which Marshall claims are all Th1 illness. (CFS is not considered an autoimmune condition and is considered a Th2 dominate illness not Th1 dominant illness). No objective lab work or animal testing was performed in order to determine the safety or efficacy of the treatment. Trevor and a few compatriots who were sarcoidosis patients simply experimented with various drugs on themselves. While Marshall has presented his model at a number of conferences now, he has not published any scientific papers on the full protocol itself in any peer reviewed journals. There is no support for his work in the biomedical community as he has not presented any objective data to support his claims.

Is it a cure?

The protocol is promoted as a curative treatment yet there is no evidence of this yet. The statement is made based solely on Marshall’s theoretical model not patient outcomes. After 5 years, no CFS patients are permanently of all the medications (including Benicar) and completely ‘cured’. While some patients have improved on the antibiotics, many of them have relapsed when they have stopped taking them and many still have just steadily deteriorated.A couple of CFS patients who had improved on the protocol and were held up as 'success stories' relapsed after stopping the antibiotics after 3-4 years on the protocol. Other patients stopping the protocol have also developed urinary tract infections, cancer and osteoporosis after extended periods on the MP. If you read the Phase 2 and 3 web boards on the www.marshallprotocol.com (you need to be a member in phase 2 or 3 to have access to these) you will see that the health of many people deteriorated while on the MP and they have had difficulty clawing it back.[iv] You will not hear about this or any such dangers on the public access Marshall Protocol site or www.curemyth1.org or www.bacteriality.com. There only the success stories are advertised.

The time promised for full remission on the Marshall Protocol was initially 12-18 months, then it became 2-3 years, then 3-5 years now 8-10 years is being bandied about. These are all Marshall’s projections, none of these claims are based on fact or outcomes. That’s an awfully long time to be on antibiotics and out of the sun.

Hidden Risks

Marshall claims that his protocol is perfectly safe for use by adults and children but does not provide any evidence to back this claim up. In fact the protocol involves many risks none of which are disclosed on the Marshall Protocol site, namely:

1. The risk of being out of the sun for extended periods of time will invariably deregulate your hormones. Vitamin D is a hormone that is critical to numerous of functions in the body. Long term vitamin D deprivation is associated with an increased the risk of osteoporosis, rickets and cancer. Vitamin D plays an important role in both the adaptive and innate the immune systems and has been found to be responsible for the synthesis of antimicrobial peptides.[v] Marshall thinks that clinical medicine is completely wrong, that vitamin D is always immunosuppressive and dismisses the health risks associated with vitamin D deprivation because they do not fit in with his theories.

2. Modulating the immune system for prolonged periods in a way that has not been tested in a lab or on animals can have all sorts of dangers. Marshall has based his protocol on a computer simulation which is underpinned by his assumptions, rather than lab tests. Medical science does not yet fully understand what various receptors and components in the immune system do and what happens if you shut some of them down. For example, if you block Angiotensin II Receptor, which Benicar does, wound healing is impaired. Any number of feedbacks or alternative pathways could result none of which are known or can be predicted in a computer model. We simply don’t have enough information to make definitive claims yet.

3. The risk of taking antibiotics over long periods of time can create resistant strains of bacteria. This is especially a risk where patients are exposed to concentrations of antibiotics which are below the minimum concentration required for killing bacteria as on the Marshall Protocol. Bacteria have a number of ways in which to avoid being detected or killed by antibiotics particularly when they are exposed to them over a long period of time. Indeed resistance to macrolides (which are used in the MP) is an increasingly growing problem. [vi] Marshall claims that it is the immune system, not the antibiotics doing the killing, that the antibiotics simply weaken the bacteria and make them more susceptible to being killed by the immune system, but there is no evidence of this. You just have to trust his theory that vitamin D is always immunosuppressive (which no one else agrees with) and its absence activates the immune system. One must also consider damage that long term impacts of antibiotic use can have on bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract.

4. Side effects of the drugs themselves:
o Benicar: The Marshall Protocol recommends the use of Benicar at four times the recommended dose for extended periods.
§ Benicar is a very effective antihypertensive agent and also decreases aldosterone levels. CFS specialist Dr. Cheney states that this can be problematic in CFS patients who already often have low blood volume and low aldosterone levels.
§ The safety of Benicar has only been tested on humans for up to a year and only at half of the dose recommended by the Marshall Protocol. It has only been tested on rats for up to 2 years, yet the protocol requires patients to remain on Benicar for several years.[vii]
o The antibiotic Minocycline can have a number of side effects especially when used over the long term. Many of these are similar to the rise in symptoms that patients are told to expect from bacterial die back.[viii] So it is impossible to tell whether patients on the MP are experiencing bacteria die back or just a drug side effect.
o Other antibiotics used in the MP are not typically used over the long term so little is known about their safety over extended periods.

Patient Care
Every symptom encountered on the site is attributed by the moderators to toxins released due to bacterial die back or 'Jarisch Herxheimer Reaction' (or 'herx'). Symptoms can be acute and varied and can include cardiac symptoms, breathing difficulties, vomiting, depression etc…Some of these may be dangerous drug reactions others merely exacerbation of disease symptoms. Moderators constantly assure patients on the internet web boards that these symptoms are an indication of bacterial die back, that their medication dosage should merely be adjusted and at best some palliation may be required. No other alternative causes such as allergic reactions, drug toxicity, disease exacerbation, vitamin D deficiency are ever suggested as these symptoms are never contemplated as possibilities on the MP, despite the fact that vitamin D deficiency is known to create depression, muscle and joint pain.[ix] Patients on the MP are encouraged to drive their 25 vitamin D levels to below 12ng/ml on Phase 2 and 3 of the protocol, which is severely deficient, the recommended vitamin D levels being 32-65ng/ml.

Interestingly the moderators who are advising patients on how to interpret symptoms and how to adjust their medication are all themselves Marshall Protocol patients. They have all yet to finished the protocol and are still ill (to varying degrees) and see the protocol as their only way out of the disease. They all cling to the protocol as it represents hope, the only road to health and gives them a sense of control over their illness. As such, they are all very devoted to the protocol which inevitably clouds their judgment when advising patients on how to interpret symptoms and adjust their medications or whether the patients ought to be on the protocol at all. The overriding goal of the MP site is not to achieve the best possible outcome for the patient, but to push the patient through the protocol, as it is automatically assumed that in the end this will be in the patient’s best interest. Thus patients are encouraged to ‘hang in there’ even when their symptoms are quite acute and dangerous and are assured that this is a sign of bacterial die back and thus part of the healing process. This has resulted in a number of patients ending up in emergency wards.

Validity of Data

While the Marshall Protocol site claims to be a study site, the evidence used to support the MP on the site is not objective. Any positive post by a patient on the Marshall Protocol.com site is put up in the success stories section even though the improvement may be temporary and the patient has subsequently felt worse. The only way to verify this is to read all of a patients posts in the Phase 2/3 forum which are off limits to anyone not in phase 2 or 3. A handful of people have improved on the MP but it is a much smaller number than the success stories page would have you believe and improvement is based on self reporting. There is no way of knowing what percentage of people who started the MP have subsequently improved because anyone who stops the MP, due to an adverse reaction to the protocol is discounted. No one is interested in why they dropped out and none of this is followed up or documented. One only needs to scan the membership list (which has date of commencement and number and date of patient posts) to see how high the dropout rate is. These patients are simply dismissed as not being tough or dedicated enough, or not complying with the rules. Only those who stay on it for over a year are eligible for inclusion in any ‘study’. So far the only study conducted was a voluntary retrospective survey that was sent out to a random selection of patients. Obviously those having more success with the protocol are more likely to stay on it as well as respond to a survey. The patient feedback was retrospective and based on self reporting so this study (which was conducted by a patient as well) has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. This is the data that Marshall cites at conferences in order to prove the efficacy of the MP.

Interestingly no one is off all the MP medications and actually cured themselves of anything except perhaps Trevor Marshall. The number of CFS patients who have not relapsed going off the antibiotics is still in single digits. Most patients are plugging away on 3 different types of antibiotics, Benicar often with anti-inflammatories, pain killers, sleep meds etc…and claiming they feel better or that they will 'turn the corner soon'. It is difficult to know what is a drug effect and what is genuine improvement as Benicar and Minocycline do have an anti-inflammatory effect which could be mistake for genuine healing and, as state previously, most MP patients have experienced a worsening of symptoms when discontinuing the antibiotics which is ongoing (see patient comments on the following web boards).[x] This all implies that at best the antibiotics were palliating their symptoms and at worse suppressing their own immune systems allowing bacteria to proliferate and possibly breeding new antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria on the way.

Patients often persist on the Marshall Protocol despite being in great pain as cling to the hope of a cure and they are told by moderators that these symptom exacerbations are a sign of healing. Thus often patients do not quit until their symptoms become so intolerable that they are forced to stop. Interestingly, of the 40 MP the patients at my doctor’s clinic who persisted into Phase 2 (most dropped out in phase 1 due to acute symptoms), half them have experienced a worsening of CFS symptoms as a result of the MP and they have often developed new CFS symptoms including orthostatic intolerance, anxiety, neuropathy, muscle and joint pain, light sensitivity, digestive problems and depression. The other half managed to return to their pre-MP level of health after a couple of months (these people usually have spent less time in Phase 2.) Interestingly, none of the ex-MP patients from my clinic have experienced any symptoms improvement after stopping the MP. One would think that if bacteria were indeed being killed by the protocol, that at least someone would feel better after all that herxing.

Conclusion

Perhaps the biggest folly of the Marshall Protocol is the belief that what happens in a computer simulation will be directly replicated in the human body. The human body is vastly complex system with multiple pathways and feedback loops. The idea of calculating the drug affinity of a few receptors on a computer, running a simulation, and then confidently claiming that this will be replicated in the human body is naïve and dangerous. Molecular modeling is a starting point for research, it provides a general direction for lab work, avoiding the needle in the haystack approach to research which wastes time. But all of this needs to be validated step by step in the lab before being rolled out to desperate patients as cure, especially when it contradicts many current lab findings, as the Marshall Protocol does.[xi] Patients on the MP are expected to trust the results of one computer model, however unfortunately theory does not neatly translate into reality. We don’t know enough about how bacteria and the immune system work to build reliable models at this stage.

So in summary the risks of going on the Marshall Protocol include:
- Risks associated with having low vitamin D for extended periods of time include immune suppression, risk of cancer, rickets and osteoporosis.
- Risk of modulating the immune system in untested ways with unknown consequences.
- Risk of taking Benicar at four times the recommended doses for prolonged periods of time with unknown consequences.
- Risk of developing bacterial resistance and proliferation from being on antibiotics for long periods of time and a worsening of your condition.

These are substantial health risks to be taking in light of the lack of evidence to support the claim of a cure for CFS and FM by the Marshall Protocol. So if mycoplasma are found to be contributing to your condition, it may be best to consider other treatment options.

[i] http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view...178280#p178280

[ii] http://www.immed.org/illness/fatigue..._research.html, http://www.neurotransmitter.net/mycoplasma.html

[iii] JOSEPH LA BRUNA VS YARC SYSTEMS CORP, Superior Court of California, County of Ventura (2001) Case number: CIV201956 ; A summary of this and other cases can be read at http://www.sarkoidose.de/apboard/use...t_upload&id=23; The list of court cases the YARC and Marshall were involved in can be found by typing ‘YARC’ into the Case Enquiry search box (for Civil cases) at the Superior Court of California, County of Ventura website found at: http://www.ventura.courts.ca.gov/vent_frameset_puba.htm

[iv] See the patient comments on the following pages: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/20...iry-tales.html,http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-Protocol.aspx

[v] http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/...urcetype=HWCIT, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...ract/1123933v1, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum, http://healthnewsdigest.com/news/Pat...Patients.shtml

[vi] http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/11/3646, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733843, http://www.docguide.com/news/content...256AE800496803

[vii]http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2004/nov_PI/Benicar_Tab_PI.pdf

[viii] http://www.drugs.com/minocycline.html, http://www.drugs.com/pro/minocycline.html

[ix] http://www.webmd.com/pain-management...linked-to-pain, http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...o-greater-pain

[x] See the patient comments on the following pages: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/20...iry-tales.html,http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-Protocol.aspx

[xi] http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-5628-...orderasc-.html,
http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:02 PM
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So mayers, were you on the protocol yourself?
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:17 PM
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Yes for nearly 2 years.I think I say that in the first paragraph. Thanks to the MP I am almost a cripple now. Most of the time I can't even walk to the toilet anymore and I am in constant pain. Stay away from this 'treatment'!
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:20 AM
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Thanks, I just wasn't sure if you were posting your own story or a cut and paste from somewhere else. I am glad you figured it out. Now you have a chance at least. We have another thread here somewhere that deals with this exact issue.

Now you may feel vulnerable and not to open to other treatments but I had a friend who's daughter had chronic fatigue syndrome. No one knew what exactly was wrong with her but she did test positive for two variations of epstein barr. Her mom asked me what I thought and I introduced them to MMS. After being nearly bedridden for a year she was nearly well after one week of MMS. I have seen her mom several times over the past year or so since and her daughter is fully well and was so after about 2 weeks of MMS.

I will tell you also that before I did MMS it seemed to me that I had an early case of fibromyalgia, or something similar. I had sharp pains at the insertion points of muscles in my legs and arms that had been going on for about 1 year. It did not debilitate me and really was quite mild and was not present everyday, but on some days it would hit repeatedly all day long, so I knew something weird was going on. Ever since I did MMS, (well over a year ago now) it went away.

I do think that microbes are involved in these diseases. But the Marshall protocol is everything contrary to ages of natural health protocol.

We have a thread here on MMS, dedicated to it, and you will find all the info there if you are interested.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:41 PM
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Yes I agree that microbes are responsible but the MP approach is completely wrong- I will stick with natural antibiofilm agents now(nattokinase, serratiopeptidase, lumbrokase etc... and herbal antimicrobials). Thanks for the tip about MMS- I will check it out. Glad that you are feeling better.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:21 AM
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Mayers, I'm very sorry this happened to you. Definitely check out MMS. I have CFS and about the same time I took MMS and started increasing my Vitamin D by going in the sun and also supplementing. I saw a great improvement with my immune system issues. I don't know whether I had some specific pathogen but reoccuring infections and flu-like symptoms for me are pretty much gone now.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Invented by electrical engineer Trevor Marshall PhD, the Marshall Protocol was initially designed for the treatment of sarcoidosis, a Th1 disease in which granulomas form in the lungs and where vitamin D pathways appear to be deregulated (this is generally not the case with CFS).
It was brought out that Trevor Marshall is trying to apply a protocol for this one disease he had to everything and that is a mistake.

CFS has an autoimmune aspect to it, but it's not classified as an autoimmune disease. Sometimes CFS can cause the immune system to overreact but sometimes it is underreacting. The immune system is complicated and not enough is known about it, especially to just call it a Th1 disregulation and leave it at that.

From what I've read from doctors and people with CFS I don't believe that CFS is caused by a pathogen, at least not in every case. A variety of factors all come together to cause CFS and that a problem with the immune system makes a person with CFS be susceptible to pathogens, such as viruses that are carried by most everyone but dormant, as is the case with the Herpes viruses.

MMS might allow you to kill whatever pathogen(s) and infections you might have so that you can be stronger to deal with the other aspects of the CFS such as heavy metals and toxins, the endocrine system, emotional issues and stress, etc. And then you would as a result, also sleep better (Vit D is also supposed to help with that) which would be a huge factor in getting better.

Have you tried supplementing with several thousand I.U.s of Vitamin D to see if that helps, since I'm sure your level got very low? I did the avoid the sun thing for a few years before I got CFS, believing it was bad (I cringe at my stupidity) so I'm thinking probably low Vit D levels was a factor for me.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:56 PM
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Yes well all seem to have done foolish things in a bid to recover. I have been supplementing VitD since which helped eliminate light sensitivity and reduce joint pain but other problems still persist.

I agree that there are a number of factors that typically lead up to CFS (stress,overextertion, viruses, compromised immunity etc..) however I do believe that pathogens play a major role in the perpetuation of the illness (chronic immune activation, inflammation etc...). There is an interesting talk by Dr. Paul Cheney on this http://cfsfm.org/index.php?option=co...598&Itemid=765

Wishing everyone better health!
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:39 AM
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Yeah, I had read that by Dr. Cheney and thought it was very interesting. The only thing is, I don't think you could categorize the immune disfunction so sharply by dividing Th1 and Th2 and saying that CFS patients are only Th2 activated. Based on what I've read I think it's more a disregulation of the whole system. I certainly don't claim to completely understand it though (or even partially, really), so I don't know but I don't think anyone understands the immune system completely and it seems that with CFS it can switch back and forth with over- and underreacting. It does seem as Dr. Cheney says that many people with CFS have candida and viruses which would indicate the underreaction of the Th2 if what Dr. Cheney says is correct.

One thing, too, I am curious to know if most people with CFS have allergies, food and environmental because that is part of the Th2 activiation. I live in a part of the country where people have a lot of allergy problems from pollen but since I got CFS I have had no allergies at all, whereas I did before, just light though. And now that the MMS seems to have gotten rid of whatever problems I was having with virus(es) and those immune issues my allergies are back, just light allergies again. Wouldn't it be the opposite if there was a strict Th1/Th2 divide with CFS? I also read somewhere, forgot where, that not having any allergies indicates that the immune system is not working properly, so when I did get the allergies back I was encouraged. I don't know if I have any food allergies. And can the increase in food allergies these days have something to do with this immune system disregulation?
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:00 AM
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I really believe heavy metals is at the root of all these chronic illnesses.

Quote:
Children are born with a cellular mediated immune system (TH1 cells – T-helper 1), a humoral immune system (TH2 cells – T-helper 2), and a regulator immune system (TH3 cells – T-helper 3) as major pieces of their overall immune systems. These three arms are immature when babies are born, and begin to mature as children are exposed to their environments through their nervous systems, skin, airways and intestines. Antibiotics, poor nutrition, stress, exposure to heavy metals and other environmental toxins, and the use of vaccines, may interfere with the proper maturing process of these three arms of children’s immune systems. In theory, if the TH system is allowed to mature, and is not interfered with, children will develop a mature, balanced TH1, TH2 and TH3 immune system by age three.

TH1 and TH2 develop to protect children from the outside world, producing inflammation and anti-inflammation responses to foreign particles from the natural environment. TH3 immune cells develop to keep the TH1/TH2 arms of the immune system in check so the body only produces the amount of inflammation and anti-inflammation that is needed to protect itself from exposures in the natural environment.

When TH2 cells are activated properly, either directly via the natural environment, or through a direct signal from the TH1 system, the B cell arm of the immune system is then stimulated, leading to the production of the desired protective antibodies. [9] [10]

It’s important for the reader to know that the hallmark of a healthy, mature immune system in children is demonstrated by an equal and balanced TH1, TH2 and TH3 immune response to the natural environment. TH1, TH2 & TH3 do not work independently, and require a very important synergistic relationship to function properly in our bodies. As soon as one or more of these three arms begins to over or under work in relation to the other, chronic illness begins to express itself.
www.njvaccinationchoice.blogspot.com/.../other-heavy-metal-aluminum-in-vaccines.html


For me, personally, if it helps, in my journey I've had Candidiasis and heavy metal poisoning and activated viruses. I've cured the candida, detoxed the heavy metals (I hope I got them all out), killed the viruses. Now I'm working on the endocrine system. First it was my adrenal glands, now those seem to be okay, then I had one disfunctioning ovary, now that seems to be okay. Now it's my thyroid. Many people with CFS have thyroid problems or at least benefit from addressing thyroid issues. I use Standard Process glandulars and iodine. We'll see where I go from here. Right now I feel pretty good but it's an up and down process so we'll see.

I make sure I eat really well, stay away from chemicals as much as I can, haha that's a joke, sadly (I also developed chemical sensitivity so that helps actually to avoid chemicals), do very light exercise--have to be careful with this because exercise for people with CFS can really mess us up, do everything I can to sleep as well as I can taking advantage of the times my body sleeps best (critical), plus take one or two naps a day when I can, support my digestion, and avoid stress--can't do this completely of course. I also worked on some emotional issues and make sure I approach life in positive way and fortunately I have a very happy life now so that I could heal in that area (they've found this to be an issue with CFS).

So don't worry, it's a healing process. Now that you're not on antibiotics and getting some D, you can start to get better and as you tackle all your issues you should get better. It's up from here. It just may take years so have a long term perspective.

When I was really sick I tried to look at it positively, like, well, now I can say no to all those things I don't want to do without guilt. I can read some good books, watch some tv, slow down, think, enjoy nature in my backyard while I get some sun. So instead of, well, I can't do what I want to do, everyone else can, I said, I can rest while everyone is on a hamster wheel. That attitude helped me a lot.

So I'm just one person and don't represent all people with CFS and I sure don't know a lot, but I did want to encourage you with whatever I can.
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Old 06-27-2009, 07:20 AM
RCannon RCannon is offline
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Very interesting- I read about half of the original post and that was enough for me to discount Marshall.

Be careful with MMS which is an oxidizer. Dr. Ali treats chronic fatigue (he has several books, one is Chronic Fatigue- The Human Canary) naturally if possible and lists all the different factors- heavy metals, food insensitivities etc. The fatigue problem comes from destruction of energy related enzymes from free radicals and toxins at the cellular level. So MMS like H2O2 oxidizes and could cause more damage in the process. First one should build up the antioxidants through lots of veggies and healthy foods that don't aggravate any allergies. THe digestive system is another area that can cause leaky gut.
Lots of areas to consider before MMS I think. But it may kill of some bacteria that could be causing a problem- parasites, etc.- this is another cause of fatigue.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:47 AM
u&iraok u&iraok is offline
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I have a problem with free radicals and take antioxidants but I figured it was more important to suspend that to take MMS to get rid of infections since infections/bacteria/parasites/viruses etc seem to be more of an immediate and dangerous problem, that you can't get well until you get rid of these. But I don't know. Though I'm not even sure that we understand antioxidants/oxidation fully, there seem to be times when oxidation is beneficial.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:15 AM
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Oxidation is so important. Why do we breath oxgen? Why is it so essential to our living?
There are oxidation processes going on all the time and they are necessary.

If we can consider that we can develop problems with antioxidants, such as not getting enough then why can we not develop problems with not getting enough oxidation. Oxygen oxidates. Yet we have come to fear it with the current alternative health propaganda designed to sell products! Perhaps we should just stop breathing or only breath every other minute to reduce the possibility of oxidation?

I think many diseases present due to problems in our oxidation cycles. This can lead to overload in pathogens. Also, anti-oxidants and oxidants may not all be involved in the same chemical reactions. We need so many different kinds of anti-oxidants to be healthy. Blue berries will do one thing, pomegranate another. Oxygen and the movement of oxygen from one process to another goes on continually.
Warburg said that lack of oxygen was the cause of disease.

Now there are all kinds of different "oxidation" process going on in the body, and not all of them are even related to oxygen. Ask wikipea what oxidation is.... yet perhaps it is called oxidation because oxygen is perhaps one of the most changable molecules there is. Oxygen promotes change and it moves around easier than any other molecule in our body. Oxidation is simply giving up of a molecule that is not well attached into a chemical reaction that need another molecule to become a more stable compound. It may or may not really involve oxygen... but in the human body it often does.

MMS provides an oxygen molecule in a form ready to work. Much like ozone therapy. In fact I have talked with ozone therapy people who are finding mms similar in its results to ozone therapy. They are now recommending MMS more than ozone. and of course it is much easier to use.
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:54 PM
RCannon RCannon is offline
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A few more thoughts-
The immune system makes H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) to kill invaders by oxidation. Unfortunately there is collateral damage. This is why a good variety of veggies and oils with vit E etc. are necessary to provide strong cell walls to be resistant to the oxidizers. There are many types of antioxidants and some can activate others. Oxidation creates the infamous free radicals, ready to damage a cell. VIt C is a powerful antioxidant that can inactivate free radicals. VIt E is fat soluble so it helps protect cell walls. I think cataracts are caused by free radicals, as is inflammation, which is the latest cause of chronic illness.

MMS can be effective without much damage in the stomach and intestine it sounds like. It would make sense to get rid of parasites and bacteria with MMS. Hydrogen Peroxide can also so this. But I'd question long term use. You could be causing inflammation. You could measure CRP I guess to see.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:53 PM
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I am not a defender of the Marshall protocol. However, there are some inaccuracies with your post:
the court found that Marshall “… concealed and omitted the true facts … made with the intention of deceiving, defrauding and misleading the plaintiff,….”
The COURT did not make any such finding, this was an allegation by the PLAINTIFF. The court did not rule on this because the case was settled.
… and Minocycline do[es] have an anti-inflammatory effect
This canard gets floated by medical profession from time to time, the only problem being it is false. If it were actually true, abx such as minocycline would be used in preference to NSAIDS since NSAIDS regularly cause serious gastrointestinal damage. This assertion is made by those who insist on denying the role of bacteria in chronic inflammatory disease..
patients have experienced a worsening of symptoms when discontinuing the antibiotics ..This all implies that at best the antibiotics were palliating their symptoms and at worse suppressing their own immune systems allowing bacteria to proliferate
The logical and obvious explanation is that the abx were suppressing bacterial infection. With the lone exception of Rifampin, i know of no antibiotic that suppresses the immune system.

There are good reasons to be wary of Marshall, as you have set forth. These errors detract from your argument.

Last edited by jdbear; 08-09-2009 at 03:35 AM.
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