Eating Meat and Dairy is Wrong !

[Mad Scientest]

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\r\n Originally Posted by revzen\r\n \r\n

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Gary Yourofsky, give a powerful presentation about why we should not eat meat or consume any dairy products;

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\n That is nothing; you need to watch this video to see how humanly our animals are treated.
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\nhttps://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/...DT5KC.facebook
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\nCould there be better ways to do this? I would like to think so.
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\nHowever there is one simple but brutal fact that most people prefer to overlook.
\nThere is no life on this plant that can exist without first taking the life of something else. But the manner in which this is done that determines the maturity of that individual, be it human, animal, bug, or plant.
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\nWhy does life have to be this way? Well at our current state of evolution that is just simply the way it works, however it appears we maybe nearing a point where that will change.\r\n

[Donee]

\r\n \r\n Lots of luck with that!
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\nSometimes I wonder how the human race has survived as long as it has.
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\nAnd over here in the U.S. noblama is hell bent in our destruction LOL.
\nPerhaps adaption of \'eating meat and dairy is wrong\' would assist in
\nhis quest.
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\nStudy of the paleo diet thesis could be, perhaps, illuminating.\r\n

[Ted_Hutchinson]

\r\n \r\n Indeed the paleo style diet relies on naturally PASTURED MEAT/DAIRY/EGG PRODUCTION not grain fed meat/dairy/poultry/fish production. If Humans are to reduce their vulnerability to chronic low level acidosis/inflammation driven illnesses we need to improve their omega 3 status and reduce our pro inflammatory omega 6 intake.
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\nIf life is going to survive on planet Earth we also have to learn how to Feed the Planet Without Destroying It
\nOur topsoil is our most valuable resource.
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\nThere are systems that enable topsoil to grow rather than continue to be depleted.
\nHow Joel Salatin creates self-generating, profitable enterprises
\nJoel Salatin not only builds soil and locks up carbon, he makes money out of farming and so do his associates. Here\'s an analysis of Polyface\'s organisational structure and the Salatin magic.
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\nI think there are ways of reducing our reliance on corn, wheat and soy that is currently unhealthy for humans and animals. But that requires a change to a [url=https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/perennial-plants-farm-bill-ze0z1205zsie.aspx#axzz2cFhsUKGl]Perennial Plants and Ecosystem-Based Agriculture however that still requires livestock grazing during certain times of the year.
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\nHolistic Management
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\nAllan Savory: How to fight desertification and reverse climate change\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by revzen\r\n \r\n

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\nI am 6ft 1inch and weigh 226 lbs - 16 stones,
\nrev

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\nWhat is the significant about that stat regarding this topic?\r\n

[revzen]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n \r\n

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What is the significant about that stat regarding this topic?

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you know SG, you got me their! I may have been thinking about a previous or future post! anyway my friend, forgive me for such a travesty!
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\nin all seriousness I had either posted or was about to post something about my problem of sweating too much!
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\npeople are strange SG, and I am!
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\nNamaste,
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\nrev\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by revzen\r\n \r\n

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you know SG, you got me their! I may have been thinking about a previous or future post! anyway my friend, forgive me for such a travesty!
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\nin all seriousness I had either posted or was about to post something about my problem of sweating too much!
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\npeople are strange SG, and I am!
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\nNamaste,
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\nrev

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No worries; my slow typing speed is the only thing that keeps me from, as Frank Zappa would say, "........and carried on without a comma.........." \r\n

[jfh]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n \r\n

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as Frank Zappa would say, "........

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That reminds me of the good old days. My hippie days. Not a worry in the world during short periods of that era. I met Frank Zappa and saw his Mothers of Invention perform in Atlanta. Long, long ago.
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\nI don\'t think eating meat is wrong. Animal husbandry has be part of human history from time immemorial. I\'d rather think that drinking milk, other than mother\'s milk, is disgusting. But cheese is my weakness. I don\'t know how I\'d live without it.\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by jfh\r\n \r\n

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\nI don\'t think eating meat is wrong. Animal husbandry has be part of human history from time immemorial.

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Yes, but some people used to eat human flesh at one time. They don\'t do it now.
\nTradition doesn\'t make it right.
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\nWhen you come to understand and accept the unity of all life and that animals have souls as we do, then meat-eating becomes untenable.\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by revzen\r\n \r\n

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On Thursday I watched a dude, Gary Yourofsky, give a powerful presentation about why we should not eat meat or consume any dairy products; and I became a vegan after being a vegetarian for 6 yrs.
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\r\nI am 6ft 1inch and weigh 226 lbs - 16 stones, and I was shocked, sickened and ashamed by our treatment of our extended family. If you eat meat or consume dairy then you are financing murder and cruelty on a daily basis.
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\r\nPlease watch the two following videos. If you don\'t become a vegan after watching Gary then you have lost your soul connection.
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\r\n https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
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\r\n https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIkC4OJEx3c
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\r\nNamaste,
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\r\nrev

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Respect to you, dear Rev.
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\r\nReminds me of the vegan saying:
\r\n\'The best thing about being a vegan? Being able to look a cow in the eye and not feel ashamed.\'\r\n

[Ted_Hutchinson]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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Being able to look a cow in the eye and not feel ashamed.\'

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But if everyone were vegan there would be no cows in kept at all.
\r\nNot only that eliminate cows and your prevent soil regeneration and so deplete topsoil.
\r\n\'Cows Save The Planet\': Soil\'s Secrets For Saving The Earth\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Ted_Hutchinson\r\n \r\n

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But if everyone were vegan there would be no cows in kept at all.
\r\nNot only that eliminate cows and your prevent soil regeneration and so deplete topsoil.
\r\n\'Cows Save The Planet\': Soil\'s Secrets For Saving The Earth

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Cows or rather the artificial practice of breeding them in vast numbers is responsible for a sizeable proportion of greenhouse gas emissions; responsible for a ludicrous waste of water and other dwlindling natural resources; one of the main causes of waterway pollution; one of the main causes of topsoil erosion - due to overgrazing; the driving force in deforestation (i.e.for grazing land and for growing animal feed) and uses up a huge amount of arable food production that could otherwise be used for human consumption.
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\r\n\'Nearly 60% of the world\'s agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world.\'
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\r\nThe Livestock Industry is wholly unsustainable even at the present level. Global population is set to increase by 40% to around 10 billion by 2050.\r\n

[revzen]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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Respect to you, dear Rev.
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\nReminds me of the vegan saying:
\n\'The best thing about being a vegan? Being able to look a cow in the eye and not feel ashamed.\'

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Forgive my late response knightofalbion, I have only just read your post! Blessings to you my friend, I see you are in Glastonbury, a place I\'ve never been to, sadly. Although I know folk from around there! Also a friend of mine has given several talks in Glastonbury - a certain Ian R Crane!
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\nAnd now for a progress report on my first week as a vegan - WONDERFUL! Physically and mentally I have never felt better(even with my various health issues!!!). I have no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever!
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\nI have also made my own rice milk - so easy it was a beautiful joyous occasion! Cutting out processed vegetarian products has also been a revelation - my heavy after meal stomach has disappeared totally!
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\nIf people continue to eat meat then they are disconnected from their soul - their is no excuse for eating meat(and all the chemicals therein). Not only are you consuming decaying flesh, you are absorbing the fear based emotions of the animal who has been slaughtered; so you are affected in more ways than you think!
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\nEating meat is a health hazard, look at some of the addictions on offer - one poster can\'t give up cheese! Another will bemoan he can\'t give up bacon! And so it goes on.......as do the excuses!!!
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\nWhen I had my realisation of the Oneness of all that is my life changed completely, and my diet has joined me too! I look back and see the changes that have taken place - all positive!
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\nNo doubt the debate will continue! For me their is no debate - eating meat and consuming dairy is wrong, it is barbaric - it is murder.
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\nNamaste,
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\nrev\r\n

[revzen]

\r\n \r\n Just came across this 4min 44secs video.
\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_dRT...SfgriCkIK6EMMQ
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\nSobering.
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\nMan(has lost the)kind is responsible for the suffering. We are all guilty.
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\nNo arguments. We are all guilty. Disconnected. Barbaric.
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\nNamaste,
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\nrev\r\n

[greif]

\r\n \r\n Eat human, get rid of the problem directly \r\n

[Solstice Goat]

\r\n \r\n So, how many folks in the \'meat eating is wrong\' camp own cats or dogs?
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\nFurthermore, what sanctions should be levied on panthers, wolves and other such creatures?
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\r\n Originally Posted by jfh\r\n \r\n

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That reminds me of the good old days. My hippie days. Not a worry in the world during short periods of that era. I met Frank Zappa and saw his Mothers of Invention perform in Atlanta. Long, long ago.
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Zappa is on my list of favorite guitarists.
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\nI\'ll never forget Frank sitting next to John Denver in the Senate hearings on C-Span regarding labeling of music lyrics. Zappa leans forward to the mic and says, "This sounds like more fundamentalist frogwash."\r\n

[Ted_Hutchinson]

\r\n \r\n Graze and end climate change, biologist says\r\n

[Mad Scientest]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Ted_Hutchinson\r\n \r\n

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Graze and end climate change, biologist says

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Oh, Oh! We have to watch out for this guy as it looks like he is trying to use common sense.
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\n So OK we are not to eat meat because that involves killing a living creature and they have feelings and can feel pain. That leaves us with plants. But experiments have shown that plants also can feel pain and even the thoughts of someone just planning to cut off a branch can cause a reaction.
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\n But seeing as how we cannot nominally hear when a plant screams apparently that makes it OK to cut and kill them?
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\n So if we should not eat any living thing then just what should we be eating?\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Mad Scientest\r\n \r\n

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Oh, Oh! We have to watch out for this guy as it looks like he is trying to use common sense.
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\r\n So OK we are not to eat meat because that involves killing a living creature and they have feelings and can feel pain. That leaves us with plants. But experiments have shown that plants also can feel pain and even the thoughts of someone just planning to cut off a branch can cause a reaction.
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\r\n But seeing as how we cannot nominally hear when a plant screams apparently that makes it OK to cut and kill them?
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\r\n So if we should not eat any living thing then just what should we be eating?

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The old chesnut which is nothing more than an attempt to morally justify eating flesh. A sort of \'Vegetarians \'kill\' carrots therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience\' argument.
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\r\nKilling a cow and harvesting a carrot, not quite the same thing is it.
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\r\nTo feel pain a plant would need a central nervous system, which they haven\'t got.
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\r\nTo register pain a plant would need a brain/mind, which they haven\'t got.
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\r\nAnd nothing happens in Evolution without good cause. What would be the point of plants having the capacity to feel pain? Can a carrot \'fight or flight\'?
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\r\nPruning usually encourages a plant to flourish, rather than harming it.\r\n

[mommysunshine]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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To feel pain a plant would need a central nervous system, which they haven\'t got.
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\nTo register pain a plant would need a brain/mind, which they haven\'t got.

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A fascinating read is The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Thompkins. A brief overview of the book is that, yes, plants do have emotions and respond to a variety of stimuli. It\'s fascinating and humbling.
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\nWhen the time comes and I\'m to meet my maker, a question I will ask (if allowed) is, "Why the food chain? Why eat other living things?"
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\nI\'ve Monarch caterpillars growing on a milkweed outside on my patio. I go to bed at night and there are 6 caterpillar eggs. I wake up the next morning and the eggs are gone. Who ate them?\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n \r\n

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So, how many folks in the \'meat eating is wrong\' camp own cats or dogs?
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\nFurthermore, what sanctions should be levied on panthers, wolves and other such creatures?
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\nThe question begs the answer.
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\nThree people in this thread, whether they actually live vegan or not, have voiced it as the only \'sane\' way to live.
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\nSo, step up and answer, maybe you\'ll win a prize!\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n \r\n

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\r\nSo, how many folks in the \'meat eating is wrong\' camp own cats or dogs?
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\r\nFurthermore, what sanctions should be levied on panthers, wolves and other such creatures?

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Most vegans don\'t keep cats or dogs for this reason.
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\r\nPeople who keep pets obviously have a liking for animals to begin with. Through the companionship of their pet \'like\' turns to \'love\'.
\r\nAnd through association with their pet they soon come to see that their pet demonstrates emotions - love,friendship, tenderness, loyalty, joy, sorrow, jealousy, fear, grief and pain - physical and mental etc.
\r\nIf they are spiritually minded they\'ll soon come to learn that it has a soul too.
\r\nEventually the penny will drop that their animal is a microcosm of the Animal Kingdom as a whole, and then everything changes and meat-eating becomes untenable and they become vegetarian or vegan.
\r\nWhat though - as you raised the point - would you have them do with their animal ? Tie it to a lamp post and abandon it?
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\r\nMost of the red meat in commercial cat and dog food is the leftovers from slaughtering for human consumption.
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\r\nCarnivorous animals, like cats and dogs, are slaves to their nature. We have a higher nature. Man was created to be \'the sanctuary of love and justice\', the guardians of Creation, not to hurt and kill.
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\r\nWhere we have a choice - and we do have the choice - we should be mindful of what we are inflicting upon others (or getting others to do it in \'your\' name because \'you\' don\'t have the stomach to do it \'yourself\') and shun the \'fruits\' of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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Most vegans don\'t keep cats or dogs for this reason.
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\nPeople who keep pets obviously have a liking for animals to begin with. Through the companionship of their pet \'like\' turns to \'love\'.
\nAnd through association with their pet they soon come to see that their pet demonstrates emotions - love,friendship, tenderness, loyalty, joy, sorrow, jealousy, fear, grief and pain - physical and mental etc.
\nIf they are spiritually minded they\'ll soon come to learn that it has a soul too.
\nEventually the penny will drop that their animal is a microcosm of the Animal Kingdom as a whole, and then everything changes and meat-eating becomes untenable and they become vegetarian or vegan.
\nWhat though - as you raised the point - would you have them do with their animal ? Tie it to a lamp post and abandon it?
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\nMost of the red meat in commercial cat and dog food is the leftovers from slaughtering for human consumption.
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\nCarnivorous animals, like cats and dogs, are slaves to their nature. We have a higher nature. Man was created to be \'the sanctuary of love and justice\', the guardians of Creation, not to hurt and kill.
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\nWhere we have a choice - and we do have the choice - we should be mindful of what we are inflicting upon others (or getting others to do it in \'your\' name because \'you\' don\'t have the stomach to do it \'yourself\') and shun the \'fruits\' of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.

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\nVery thoughtful response, thank you. \r\n

[D Bergy]

\r\n \r\n I am fairly certain that about half of the group that has gone vegetarian or vegan
\r\nHas done so in an effort to improve their health.
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\r\nThe other half does it so they can have a false sense of superiority over the majority who eats as an omnivore.
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\r\nMost health conscious people eat whatever they thrive on better or attempt to do so.
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\r\nAnimals should be treated humanely, but not as humans They exist for our use as pets, beasts of burdon, or food.
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\r\nDan\r\n

[revzen]

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\r\n Originally Posted by D Bergy\r\n \r\n

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I am fairly certain that about half of the group that has gone vegetarian or vegan
\nHas done so in an effort to improve their health.
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\nThe other half does it so they can have a false sense of superiority over the majority who eats as an omnivore.
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\nMost health conscious people eat whatever they thrive on better or attempt to do so.
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\nAnimals should be treated humanely, but not as humans They exist for our use as pets, beasts of burdon, or food.
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\nDan

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Dan, so wrong! Animals are our equals and in many cases are superior to us. You have been well indoctrinated by the System. The \'experts\' have done their job well in your case!
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\nWe, as a species are the monsters. The evidence is plain to see. The destruction of the planet is bringing life to a close here, and we are guilty; and we think of ourselves as intelligent!
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\nSo intelligent that we may bring an end to ALL LIFE on planet Earth.
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\nPathetic.\r\n

[Ted_Hutchinson]

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\r\n Originally Posted by revzen\r\n \r\n

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So intelligent that we may bring an end to ALL LIFE on planet Earth.
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\nPathetic.

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Indeed it\'s Pathetic that some people don\'t understand that in order to continue to survive we have to maintain our topsoil and the hundreds of different species it contains. The best and easiest way to maintain topsoil is to ensure that the ground is regularly grazed and animal waste is incorporated into the topsoil to maintain it\'s fertility.
\nWe can\'t grow any crops naturally without topsoil. Going back to mixed farming where animal were an essential part of maintaining soil fertility is more sustainable than the current reliance on intensive fertilizer, pesticide and herbicide applications.
\nWe have to understand how modern over-processed over refined carbohydrates are creating the ideal substrate for the growth of pathogenic gut flora to flourish which produce the acidosis that creates current dysbiosis for the animals (including humans) that consume it. The acidosis creates the inflammation that underlies most of the chronic diseases of western civilisation.
\nWe don\'t have to turn the clock back very far. The enormous rise in obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer heart disease and dementia has occurred in my lifetime.
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\nReducing our reliance on refined grains, sugars HFCS and omega 6 oil consumption would reduce our caloric intake naturally and also reduce the pro-inflammatory gut flora that are adversely affecting our physical health and mental well-being, Human brains require animal fats to function optimally. Reducing High Blood sugar the key to preventing Alzheimer\'s We need to put the fat back into our diets and reduce the over-processed over-refined carbohydrates.\r\n

[D Bergy]

\r\n \r\n Yes, I have been indoctrinated by tens of thousands of years of human history. I assume this is the system you are referring to.
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\r\nDan\r\n

[knightofalbion]

\r\n \r\n Wide of the mark.
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\r\n35% of global topsoil erosion is directly due to grazing, or rather overgrazing, animals for meat production.
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\r\n30% of global topsoil erosion is due to deforestation. And the main driving force behind deforestation? - meat production.
\r\nAn area of Amazonian rainforest the size of France has been cut down, destroyed and lost forever, to graze cattle for beef production and grow animal feed to be fed to cattle for beef production.
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\r\nhttps://www.globalchange.umich.edu/gl.../land_deg.html
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\r\nAs for needing animal fats for \'optimal brain function\'. Apart from Christ, the greatest person of the Age and the cleverest was Leonardo da Vinci, a man literally hundreds of years ahead of his time. He shunned animal foods, didn\'t eat meat, refused to \'permit injury to any living creature\'...\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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Wide of the mark.
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\n35% of global topsoil erosion is directly due to grazing, or rather overgrazing, animals for meat production. .

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\nNo way that 30% of the animal products in the US are pasture raised. It\'s much closer to 2%, with the rest being raised CAFO.
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\nBased on anecdotal evidence gathered from friends who own goats, I must reverse my initial response to Ted and concur; grazing animals do build topsoil, which in turn generates greater plant yields. If you don\'t believe me, do a search for \'permaculture\' and see what you come up with.
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\r\n Originally Posted by D Bergy\r\n \r\n

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Yes, I have been indoctrinated by tens of thousands of years of human history. I assume this is the system you are referring to.
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\nDan

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\nDING DING DING!!!!!!!!
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\nMan evolved by animal consumption, pure and simple.
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\nFurthermore, NOT feeding my dog that I rescued from 14 months of cruelty raw meat, would be cruelty, because he too, was born to eat meat.\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n \r\n

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No way that 30% of the animal products in the US are pasture raised. It\'s much closer to 2%, with the rest being raised CAFO.
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\r\nBased on anecdotal evidence gathered from friends who own goats, I must reverse my initial response to Ted and concur; grazing animals do build topsoil, which in turn generates greater plant yields. If you don\'t believe me, do a search for \'permaculture\' and see what you come up with.

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\r\nIf you check the website listed you\'ll see the 35% mentioned is a global figure.
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\r\n2%? It\'s 25%. US Government\'s own figures.
\r\nhttps://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/landuse.html
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\r\nhttps://www.makingpages.org/health/veg-facts.html\r\n

[Solstice Goat]

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n \r\n

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If you check the website listed you\'ll see the 35% mentioned is a global figure.
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\n2%? It\'s 25%. US Government\'s own figures.
\nhttps://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/landuse.html
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\nhttps://www.makingpages.org/health/veg-facts.html

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\nOh, you mean the clowns that are fighting a proxy war in Syria right now?
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\nFor some reason they don\'t show up on my list of trusted sources at this time.
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\nI have to search hard for pasture raised dairy products with over 99% of the offerings CAFO.
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\nSo, where is all this overgrazed dairy and meat products for sale at?\r\n

[D Bergy]

\r\n \r\n It would seem to be a problem of overpopulation then, not of food choices. Overpopulation will eat up virtually all resources of the earth if the birth rate keeps climbing unabated. Nature usually will take care of this also through plagues, starvation, war etc if the problem is not checked by ourselves.
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\r\nDan\r\n

[knightofalbion]

\r\n \r\n The two are inexorably linked. Meat production is at the tipping point. We could feed up to 11 billion people on a plant based diet, using all existing agricultural land to grow food exclusively for human consumption, instead of using such a large proportion of it, so inefficiently, for meat production and growing crops for animal feed.
\n
\nBut man needs to see the bigger picture. It is what you might term the Old Testament attitude that we can help ourselves to the natural world, asset stripping with gay abandon, that has landed us in this mess.
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\nMan was created to be the guardians of the natural world. We need to recognise the unity of all life and learn to live in harmony with Nature.
\nBefore it is too late...\r\n

[knightofalbion]

\r\n \r\n If slaughterhouses had glass walls...
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\r\nThis is the edited version. Still not pretty, but we are not children...
\r\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2UMp9fsAJo
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\r\nBefore the \'Yes, but...\' brigade turn up. Random filming. What was happening on the days when they weren\'t there to record it? All sweetness and light? I think not.\r\n

[D Bergy]

\r\n \r\n I would agree that the methods common to factory type farming are destructive to the land and lead to soil exhaustion, but that is a relatively recent deviation from traditional farming. Where farming occurs is equally important. One of the biggest milk producing states is California. Not because it is a good place to raise dairy cows but because the milk subsidies from the government encourage farming in places that would not occur under normal circumstances.
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\r\nIt is difficult to find a dairy farm in Minnesota today, although it is far better suited for this.
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\r\nUsing Corn for producing fuel is about as inefficient as it gets so now we have millions of acres growing a monoculture of fuel crops. No animals to replenish the soil, but more petroleum based fertilizer is used to make a petroleum substitute. Not much future in that either. Subsidies keep that practice alive also.
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\r\nThe argument that animals feel pain as a result of slaughter is certainly true, but animals raised in the traditional way have an excellent life otherwise. They do not face starvation, disease, constant preditation, etc. There is always pain and cruelty involved with life. That does not mean we should not try to minimize the experience, much like it is done with child birth and surgery.
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\r\nI have watched a house cat torture mice, birds for hours. That is their nature. It should not be ours, but the harmony with nature thing does not exist as presented. Nature is every bit as cruel as humans can be, and you can\'t get around that fact. I have seen deer dragging their guts in the dirt due to a wolf attack or a Red Squirrel biting the testicles off of a Grey Squirrel "ouch". Nothing pretty or harmonious about that. It is reality, but if you live in the middle of Chicago you probably are not aware of how things really are in nature.
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\r\nYou probably have not witnessed a mother rabbit killing its offspring because it has a defect. Humans do not normally do that. Nature does.
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\r\nNature is not like a Bambi movie, it is often ugly, cruel, painful but that is part and parcel of life in general.
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\r\nDan\r\n

[Mad Scientest]

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\r\n Originally Posted by D Bergy\r\n \r\n

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but if you live in the middle of Chicago you probably are not aware of how things really are in nature.
\nDan

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Oh I think he might be, if one goes into the �right areas� it can be a virtual jungle with the gang bangers fighting over their turf.
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\nAs I said earlier there is no life on this plant that can exist without first taking the life of something else. Every living thing feeds on some other living thing and as Dan stated the results are not always very pretty. Yet this is the norm. However if the creator finds all of this offensive should he/(she?) not be able to but a stop to it with a simple snap of his magnificent fingers. But I haven�t heard any snaps lately. So there must be a reason for allowing it to continue. \r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by Mad Scientest\r\n \r\n

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Oh I think he might be, if one goes into the �right areas� it can be a virtual jungle with the gang bangers fighting over their turf.
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\r\nAs I said earlier there is no life on this plant that can exist without first taking the life of something else. Every living thing feeds on some other living thing and as Dan stated the results are not always very pretty. Yet this is the norm. However if the creator finds all of this offensive should he/(she?) not be able to but a stop to it with a simple snap of his magnificent fingers. But I haven�t heard any snaps lately. So there must be a reason for allowing it to continue.

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It\'s called free will.
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\r\nWhenever man gets too big for his boots and decides to \'play God\' / when man fails to live in harmony with Nature, it always ends in calamity.
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\r\nNo culture or civilisation lasts forever. We are fools if we think ours will be any different.\r\n

[knightofalbion]

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\r\n Originally Posted by D Bergy\r\n \r\n

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I would agree that the methods common to factory type farming are destructive to the land and lead to soil exhaustion, but that is a relatively recent deviation from traditional farming. Where farming occurs is equally important. One of the biggest milk producing states is California. Not because it is a good place to raise dairy cows but because the milk subsidies from the government encourage farming in places that would not occur under normal circumstances.
\r\n
\r\nIt is difficult to find a dairy farm in Minnesota today, although it is far better suited for this.
\r\n
\r\nUsing Corn for producing fuel is about as inefficient as it gets so now we have millions of acres growing a monoculture of fuel crops. No animals to replenish the soil, but more petroleum based fertilizer is used to make a petroleum substitute. Not much future in that either. Subsidies keep that practice alive also.
\r\n
\r\nThe argument that animals feel pain as a result of slaughter is certainly true, but animals raised in the traditional way have an excellent life otherwise. They do not face starvation, disease, constant preditation, etc. There is always pain and cruelty involved with life. That does not mean we should not try to minimize the experience, much like it is done with child birth and surgery.
\r\n
\r\nI have watched a house cat torture mice, birds for hours. That is their nature. It should not be ours, but the harmony with nature thing does not exist as presented. Nature is every bit as cruel as humans can be, and you can\'t get around that fact. I have seen deer dragging their guts in the dirt due to a wolf attack or a Red Squirrel biting the testicles off of a Grey Squirrel "ouch". Nothing pretty or harmonious about that. It is reality, but if you live in the middle of Chicago you probably are not aware of how things really are in nature.
\r\n
\r\nYou probably have not witnessed a mother rabbit killing its offspring because it has a defect. Humans do not normally do that. Nature does.
\r\n
\r\nNature is not like a Bambi movie, it is often ugly, cruel, painful but that is part and parcel of life in general.
\r\n
\r\nDan

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Be it individuals or humanity as a whole, always there is a better, higher way. And it must be found if there is to be progress.\r\n

[D Bergy]

\r\n \r\n I have seen at least a dozen "end of the world" predictions in my life time. While I have no doubt there will be an end to the world eventually I doubt anyone will see it coming ahead of time.
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\r\nPredictions based a on statistics moving in a straight line are bound to be wrong because nature hates a straight line and something always mucks up a straight line prediction. Try making money on a stock using that method and you will lose your ass.
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\r\nWhether eating animals is right or wrong is an opinion in the end. I do not have an aversion to it, because it is obvious to me that I was designed to eat that way. I did not design myself so I will assume the creator is smarter than me and had a reason for that. I have no qualms about people not eating animals either. That is what freedom of choice is all about. We are all Humans and humans come first in my book. Like any other species I am looking out for my species first.
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\r\nThat means preserving other species and using them as needed. Not being wasteful and realizing every species has a purpose even if I do not know what that purpose is.
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\r\nThings change as needed. If our farming methods prove to be adversarial to our existence they will change eventually. The rain forest can grow back, just as a the farmers fields in my area have reverted back to forest. My neighbors live on a former potato farm. I could not tell that from looking at it but an old timer remembers it. The land is covered in trees now.
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\r\nHave a little faith, and your warning is likely moving things in another direction be it slowly.
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\r\nDan\r\n

[revzen]

On Thursday I watched a dude, Gary Yourofsky, give a powerful presentation about why we should not eat meat or consume any dairy products; and I became a vegan after being a vegetarian for 6 yrs.

I am 6ft 1inch and weigh 226 lbs - 16 stones, and I was shocked, sickened and ashamed by our treatment of our extended family. If you eat meat or consume dairy then you are financing murder and cruelty on a daily basis.

Please watch the two following videos. If you don't become a vegan after watching Gary then you have lost your soul connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIkC4OJEx3c

Namaste,

rev