Arrowwind09

Standing at the Portal
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
What an excellent article!

The first study, widely broadcast in the news after it appeared in the British Medical Journal, was a seven year, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of daily supplementation with calcium (1 gram) and vitamin D (400 IU) in 36,282 postmenopausal women in the Women’s Health Initiative (WHI) study. Meta-analysis of three placebo-controlled trials found calcium and vitamin D increased risk of myocardial infarction 24% and the composite of myocardial infarction or stroke 15%. The conclusion drawn by Bolland et al.: “A reassessment of the role of calcium supplements in osteoporosis management is warranted.” 24
This above situation could be avoided if the correct dosages of calcium and vitamin D3 were supplemented. The calcium should not exceed 300 to 400 mg a day and in the correct form, that certainly not being calcium carbonate, and needs to be matched with magnesium and such calcium supplementation is likely only needed in peri menapausal women and post menapausal women and elderly men. Hormonal depetion in elderly men likely contributes to osteoporosis, as with women. Vitamin D3, during calcium supplementation should be at least 5,000IU a day, and for the elderly possibly 10,000 IU, to be confirmed by D3 blood levels by lab analysis to maintain a blood level of at least 70.... all in my humble opinion. Such studies need to report the specific type of nutrients supplemented. Saying just calcium is way too broad as it is commonly known that the form of calcium is critical to its ability to be utilized.

It seems that science did not address the fact to my satisfaction the production of Vitamin k2 in the gut, or perhaps this potential was overlooked by the author? What exactly promotes self production of this vitamin? Specifically, exactly what bacteria are responsible and how does one cultivate and protect such a bacterial population? Once again science skips over the bodies own natural capacities though correct nutrition and favors the studies of supplements instead of benficial foods, and in this case foods that nourish the gut. Although natto is a food that provides vitamin K2 it is not mentioned that it promotes self manufacture of the vitamin.


It is reported that e-coli is responsible for the production of vitamin K2 in the colon. About 0.1% of the gut flora is composed of e-coli. In general e-coli is not a danger to humans but considered a friendly bacteria but since the advent of antibiotic usage strains of e-coli have developed that can cause serious disease. An interesting study would be to look at e-coli and its vitamin K production and exactly how that production may be altered by the use of antibiotics in humans. Could the over use of antibiotics be contributing to an increase in chronic disease as mentioned in this article though the reduction of the levels endogenous production of vitamin K2 available via the mutation of e-coli? Could vaccinations be affecting the endogenous production of e-coli? Remember, our immune system starts in the gut.
 

Samia

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Thanks for all this excellent information, Arrow. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that vaccinations are indeed not a good thing for our intestines and therefore overall health.
 

liverock

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Jul 18, 2008
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Out of sight
Vitamin K2: Optimal Levels Essential for the Prevention of Age-Associated Chronic Disease

by Lara Pizzorno, MDiv, MA, LMT

There is a lot of useful information here that I'm sure most people would find interesting.
Chris Masterjohn agrees that high doses of Vitamin D reduces K2 levels which means you must supplement with K2 with high dosages of Vitamin D to prevent calcification.

He proposes however that Vitamin A levels are also important to prevent calcification by having a Vitamin K sparing effect when high dosages of Vitamin D are taken.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/vitaminKarticle.pdf
 

Ted_Hutchinson

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Joined
May 25, 2009
Original Poster
Chris Masterjohn agrees that high doses of Vitamin D reduces K2 levels which means you must supplement with K2 with high dosages of Vitamin D to prevent calcification.
Chris Masterjohn is an extremely smart guy BUT he is not a practising doctor so doesn't have the practical experience of someone like Dr Cannel of the Vitamin D Council who has been using effective strength vitamin D supplementation with his patients for many years.
Recent Chris Masterjohn interview in which he talks about the differences in understandings citing Mercola and Cannel. I think there is possibly more overlap than we may imagine. People tend to hype up the differences rather an looking at the similarities in positions.
I'd rather people correct vitamin D3, magnesium vitamin K deficiencies while checking on Vitamin A and Calcium intakes. I think it's virtually certain everyone is vit d mag vit k deficient and it's less likely they are short of vitamin a or calcium but it's not that difficult to check your diet through a calculator.
 

Samia

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
"it's less likely they are short of vitamin a or calcium but it's not that difficult to check your diet through a calculator."

I should think that intake determined thru a calculator doesn't necessarily lead to what your particular body actually requires. There's the issue, I think, of beta-carotene VS preformed Vitamin A.

I thought I had enough of a Ca intake, but if I consume a modest amount of chocolate, not heavily sweetened, I get a bad, continuous leg cramp at night. Taking a calcium/Mg pill stops it in its tracks.

Anyway, I see that even with supermarket brands of Vitamin D, they are including Vit K.
 

Arrowwind09

Standing at the Portal
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
What it all comes down to is eating right. The most diligent anal retentive person cannot balance all those vitamins on a daily basis if they are taking them in capsule form. It gets hugely complex and unless they have a orthomolecular doc at their beck and call they will be making errors for no one can see what their body needs on a daily bases, under changing stresses and diet variations.

You basically need to eat good wholesome foods and well digest your food. Thats the bottom line.

Some people perpetually megadose on vitamins. Megadosages should be reserved for actual treatment of disease, not a daily ritual. The best supplements are made from foods themselves, like greens products, whole herbs, whey etc.
 

Ted_Hutchinson

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May 25, 2009
Original Poster
Megadosages should be reserved for actual treatment of disease, not a daily ritual. The best supplements are made from foods themselves, like greens products, whole herbs, whey etc.
But in order to understand what constitutes a Mega dose one needs an understanding of the amounts your DNA evolved to deal with.
Vitamin D3 is a typical example.
Full body sun exposure produces 10,000iu ~ 20,000iu in just a relatively short full body non burning exposure.
If you live further from the equator then, in winter, when no UVB is available to generate Vitamin D3 on skin what actually constitutes a megadose and how do you justify your choice?

Similarly with food intakes.
Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria has moved from using supplements to using food sourced micronutrients and explains here the quantities required.
I think we have to be realistic about what the average reader here will be able to manage. Of course we should offer advice as to what actually constitutes the ideal, but where the ideal is not likely to be met then isn't it reasonable to offer a compromise solution that at least covers the basics?
 

Samia

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
It's occurred to me that maybe if you get plenty of sunshine on your skin in the summer, then it'll be stored up for winter. (Still, I hope to get tested.)

Why wouldn't we have evolved to be able to store Vit D up, too. I am talking about white-skinned people of European ethnicity.

"Of course we should offer advice as to what actually constitutes the ideal, but where the ideal is not likely to be met then isn't it reasonable to offer a compromise solution that at least covers the basics?"

Dr. Terry Wahls' story is riveting and I am glad that she made a go of it. This is what I see so much of, though: countless doctors (of various stripes - not all MDs, that is) healing themselves through a certain way of eating and then projecting this onto the whole world as the solution. If I had 50 cents for every health writer or doctor who plugs a certain lifestyle as suitable for everyone just because it was right for him/her, I would be a rich woman today. :p And I'm not going to start eating animal kidneys, etc. I hated organs and glands as a kid and I don't think I have changed.
 

Ted_Hutchinson

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May 25, 2009
Original Poster
It's occurred to me that maybe if you get plenty of sunshine on your skin in the summer, then it'll be stored up for winter. (Still, I hope to get tested.)

Why wouldn't we have evolved to be able to store Vit D up, too. I am talking about white-skinned people of European ethnicity.
I think we would if we lived naked outdoor lives in the country, ate organic foods pasture raised meats and grass fed dairy and didn't consume refined grains. It's stress that raises inflammation levels as does a pro inflammatory diet. If all the food you consume resolves rather than promotes inflammation then your anti inflammatory resources will not get depleted so quickly and therefore you will have more left to last through the winter.
The vitamin d that is circulating in plasma and is measured in a 25(OH)D test has a half life of only about 3 weeks So if you think of a very greed bank manager who stole half the capital left in your bank account every 3 weeks from October through to February you'd have to have a fortune to still have any money left at the end of February. That is why I keep stressing the need to get 25(OH)D up to the point (above 40ng/ml) at which Vitamin d starts getting taken out of circulation and is stacked away in tissue where it lasts longer. By the time most people get up to a circulating level of around 60ng/ml 150nmol/l most people will have reasonable measurable stored vitamin d reserves and these give you a store to use to help get you through the winter. Naturally (people like life guards) who spend a lot of time outdoore in the sun in summer get up to 100ng/ml so they have huge stored reserves of D3.
Trouble is you can easily/quickly deplete your stores/circulating vitamin d3 if you have to have an operation or have a serious accident/injury.

And I'm not going to start eating animal kidneys, etc. I hated organs and glands as a kid and I don't think I have changed.
The Benefits of Organ Meats makes more sense than using supplements.
 

u&iraok

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Joined
May 22, 2009
Location
In my head
Thanks for the article on organ meats. In the U.S. they used to be eaten. We really should get back to it, instead of picking at white meat chicken like I was raised to do and avoiding anything that looked weird.

My husband's culture eats organ meats and they love strong tasting gamey flavors, having grown up on them. I tried some kidneys when I was there--yuck, worse than liver if that's possible. But I make myself eat them. He's also shown me how to eat the collagen or whatever that white stuff is on the joints on chicken bones and to get the marrow out.

Just make sure the animals are grass fed or organic or hormone free. I would think hormones and other bad things would settle in the organs?
 

majbsb

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Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
England
so to raise this post from the dead, what would be a good dosage of Vitamin K2 and what particular supplement (i.e. iherb.com) does one recommend? Thanks.
 


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