question for Mad Scientist (electrodermal devices)

scorpiotiger

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Jan 28, 2007
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USA
Mad Scientist,

I don't know much about the setting up and wiring of electrical devices (wish I did).

Can you explain in layman's terms why devices like Rife Machine, and the Biomeridian machine are so expensive?

It seems to me, in this day and age, measuring differences in skin resistance wouldn't be that big a deal.

http://www.biomeridian.com/technology.htm
http://www.biomeridian.com/education.htm
 

Mad Scientest

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Illinois
OK I went to the Biomeridian site and took a brief look around. The first thing I noticed was that they were saying how great their machine is, this of course I expected, however they did not go into any detail as to how it is used or how it works or how one reads and interprets its results. Now I did not carefully read through the entire site so I might have missed this information, yet if I were selling this device this is the information that I would be prominently displaying. Not seeing it causes me to have some doubt about the device.

However it was mention that at they are measuring resistance or more specifically conductance. Resistance and conductance are similar but they are the opposite of each other.

Resistance measures the ability of a material to oppose a current flow.
Conductance measures the ability of a material to allow a current flow.

Conductance is typically used when measuring very small amount of current. However a typical problem when trying to measure very small currents is frequently there will also be other random currents (electrical noise) associated with it. To separate this “noise” from the signal that you what to measure can be tricky.

You can easily measure your skin resistance with any cheepie multimeter ($5-$10) that you might find at Radio Shack. To measure conductance requires a considerably more expensive meter.
 

scorpiotiger

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hmmm... they seem to equate "low skin resistance" with greater conductance.

The basic concept for all of the ElectroDermal screening devices, was the invention of Dr. Reinhardt Voll[1], who in the 1940s, discovered that the electrical resistance of the human body is not homogenous and that meridians existed over the body which may be demonstrated as electrical fields. Furthermore, he showed that the skin is a semi-insulator to the outside environment. By the 1950s Voll had learned that the body had at least 1000 points on the skin which followed the 12 lines of the classical Chinese meridians. Each of these points, Voll[2] called a Measurement Point (MP). Working with an engineer, Fritz Werner, Voll created an instrument to measure the skin resistance at each of the acupuncture points, patterned after a technique called Galvanic Skin Resistance (GSR). This was named Point Testing. In 1953, Voll had established the procedure that became known as Electro-Acupuncture according to Voll (EAVJ. This included two parts:
1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The first part was point testing in which a conductance measurement was taken in selected acupuncture points.
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The second part was the establishment of a balance of the points and conductance by the use of feedback medicine. This became known as Medicine Testing.
During the 1950s, many investigators[3] including Nakatani studied the electrical conductance of the skin. They evaluated the elasticity, resistance, permeability, and chemistry among many other properties of the skin and found that there was a much lower skin resistance (higher conductance) at specific points on the skin. Normally, the skin has a resistance of 2-4 million Ohms but over the specific conductance points, the resistance of only 100,000 Ohms is found in normal healthy persons. These points corresponded to classical acupuncture points.
Later, these acupuncture points were investigated and were considered to be "information access windows" and the assumption was made that the health status of an organ will affect the concentrations of the ions at the measurement points along the meridian (measurement points). It was considered that inflammation of an organ may cause increase ion concentration and the increase of ions enhances the flow of electrons causing resistance to decrease while the conductance may increase. On the other hand, a degeneration of an organ may cause decease in ion concentration that hinders the flow of electrons, so as the resistance increases conductance decreases.
During the procedure of ElectroDermal analysis the body becomes an integral part of a closed circuit. The conductance circuit touches two areas on the body being tested. In the first point of contact, the ground electrode is held in the palm of the opposite hand to be tested. In the second place the test probe touches the specific acupuncture or conductance points on skin. After completing this closed circuit, a known amount of electric current is emitted from the instrument through the probe. The instrument then measures the conductance from baseline to peak and return to baseline through the conductance point that is being tested by the probe. This represents a dynamic conductance value.
there is more here:
http://www.biomeridian.com/electrodermal-analysis.htm

so, do you think this is legit? or mumbo jumbo?

and here is more from http://www.biomeridian.com/education.htm

On the Explanation of Electrodermal Diagnostic and Treatment Instruments Part I. The Electrical Behavior of Human Skin. More Information - Tiller, William A., Ph.D., Stanford University.
the "more information" links to an older document, but it looks like it has more of an explanation of the skin resistance measuring...
 

Donee

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Apr 8, 2006
Location
California
restance = 1/conductance

Re:

"During the 1950s, many investigators[3] including Nakatani studied the electrical conductance of the skin. They evaluated the elasticity, resistance, permeability, and chemistry among many other properties of the skin and found that there was a much lower skin resistance (higher conductance) at specific points on the skin. Normally, the skin has a resistance of 2-4 million Ohms but over the specific conductance points, the resistance of only 100,000 Ohms is found in normal healthy persons. These points corresponded to classical acupuncture points."

This is not basically wrong, it is just ill defined. When talking about the
electrical resistance of a material, the volume, shape and conduction
surface of contact is required in order to make repeatable and/or
usable sense. In the quote above no information on the nature of the
electrical probe is indicated in relation to the indicated value.
 

scorpiotiger

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so, are you saying that in order to assume a certain standard of normal measurements, they have to assume all human skin is the same "volume" or depth, and the makeup of all skin tested is about the same?
 

Donee

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Apr 8, 2006
Location
California
skin measurements

No, that is not what I mean. Give me a little time & I'll
get back to this. I have been planning to write up something
on this for the microelectricitygermkiller2 yahoo forum, so
I'll try to get it done.
 

Mad Scientest

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Illinois
That would be nice, but as we are aware everyone is slightly different. But unlike taking someone temperature this process is a “bit” more involved.

First we need a meter that can measure these low values of conductance. Then we need a test probe. What should it look like? Cause its size and shape could affect the readings. Is there a correct way to apply this test probe as that too might affect the readings? Will we get different readings if it’s applied to different parts of the body? Is there one normal reading or are there many normal readings depending on what part of the body is being measured? What constitutes a bad, slightly bad or very bad reading? Etc.

Obviously there are many question that need to be answered before it can be stated that this is either a good device or not. Apparently some testing has been done that would answer the above questions. How much information they have is what will determine the true value of their device.
 

jfh

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Dec 3, 2007
Location
Texas, USA
I had an ND that worked on me for a year and a half with one of these electrical measuring devices. It had a metal plate where he would put small viles of things; such as bacteria, fungi, metals, bottles of supplements, etc. Then he would press a probe on points of my fingers and say "this is to test the liver, the kidneys, the heart" etc. The probe was metal also. It was as long as a pencil and about that size too. The measurement was to watch a needle on the device to see how far it moved.

I was not impressed. I'm difficult to work with though. Nothing seems to work. Not homeopathy, herbs, chiropractor, accupressure, etc. The only herbs that seem to work are bowel stimulants; such as senna and casgara sagrada.

But I am very interested in this thread; so please keep it public. Thanks.
 

scorpiotiger

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Jan 28, 2007
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USA
Original Poster
I have never understood that whole thing with the supplements - either the muscle testing or this method. If holding a bottle of supplements shows that something is "fixed"... then why bother taking the supplements? Just hold them everyday. Just think of the money you would save.. :p

More about Voll's method:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3-bZt8YoRNoC&pg=PA182&dq=electroacupuncture+according+to+voll&sig=xvsRnaJlt2SKu1d8h-zutaQWut8

ELECTRO-ACUPUNCTURE ACCORDING TO VOLL
It should be mentioned that there is a school of thought that has extended the scope of electro-acupuncture to include diagnosis of energy at any acupoint. This method is known as electro-acupuncture according to Voll (EAP). The machine used for this purpose is the EAV Dermatron. This was developed by R. Voll of Germany.

It is based on the principle that an acupoint has a higher electrical conductivity relative to the immediate surrounding skin area, , and that in conditions of disease, there is usually a further decrease in the resistance of that point. This in turn indicates that there is a blockage in the free flow of energy in that meridian and a disorder present in the related organ. When an imbalance in the acupoint is found the equilibrium is restored by stimulating the acupoint or points. Improvement can be measured objectively.
 


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