So, how many folks in the 'meat eating is wrong' camp own cats or dogs?
Furthermore, what sanctions should be levied on panthers, wolves and other such creatures?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfh
That reminds me of the good old days. My hippie days. Not a worry in the world during short periods of that era. I met Frank Zappa and saw his Mothers of Invention perform in Atlanta. Long, long ago.
.
Zappa is on my list of favorite guitarists.
I'll never forget Frank sitting next to John Denver in the Senate hearings on C-Span regarding labeling of music lyrics. Zappa leans forward to the mic and says, "This sounds like more fundamentalist frogwash."
__________________ "We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me." George Orwell
Last edited by Solstice Goat; 08-21-2013 at 06:57 AM.
Reason: Three-leg Transfer Head Adaptor
Oh, Oh! We have to watch out for this guy as it looks like he is trying to use common sense.
So OK we are not to eat meat because that involves killing a living creature and they have feelings and can feel pain. That leaves us with plants. But experiments have shown that plants also can feel pain and even the thoughts of someone just planning to cut off a branch can cause a reaction.
But seeing as how we cannot nominally hear when a plant screams apparently that makes it OK to cut and kill them?
So if we should not eat any living thing then just what should we be eating?
Oh, Oh! We have to watch out for this guy as it looks like he is trying to use common sense.
So OK we are not to eat meat because that involves killing a living creature and they have feelings and can feel pain. That leaves us with plants. But experiments have shown that plants also can feel pain and even the thoughts of someone just planning to cut off a branch can cause a reaction.
But seeing as how we cannot nominally hear when a plant screams apparently that makes it OK to cut and kill them?
So if we should not eat any living thing then just what should we be eating?
The old chesnut which is nothing more than an attempt to morally justify eating flesh. A sort of 'Vegetarians 'kill' carrots therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience' argument.
Killing a cow and harvesting a carrot, not quite the same thing is it.
To feel pain a plant would need a central nervous system, which they haven't got.
To register pain a plant would need a brain/mind, which they haven't got.
And nothing happens in Evolution without good cause. What would be the point of plants having the capacity to feel pain? Can a carrot 'fight or flight'?
Pruning usually encourages a plant to flourish, rather than harming it.
__________________
Pain is still pain, suffering is still suffering, regardless of whoever or whatever is the victim.
Everything is worthy of kindness.
As far as I am concerned being a vegetarian is simply a matter of personal choice, you have to eat something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightofalbion
To feel pain a plant would need a central nervous system, which they haven't got.
How do you explain the experiments done with plants where the plants were wired up to a “lie detector” of sorts? Then when a person came into the room and said to the plant things like “My what a beautiful plant” and it produced a response on the detector. If someone else came in and yelled and cursed at the plant that produced a different response.
Or if someone in a white coat came in and just stood next to the plant there was no response but if he started to hack and cut up a plant next to the one that “wired up” that also produced the responce on the detector. Latter if that same person returned and just stood in front of the plant that too produced a response but only if wearing the white coat.
To feel pain a plant would need a central nervous system, which they haven't got.
To register pain a plant would need a brain/mind, which they haven't got.
A fascinating read is The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Thompkins. A brief overview of the book is that, yes, plants do have emotions and respond to a variety of stimuli. It's fascinating and humbling.
When the time comes and I'm to meet my maker, a question I will ask (if allowed) is, "Why the food chain? Why eat other living things?"
I've Monarch caterpillars growing on a milkweed outside on my patio. I go to bed at night and there are 6 caterpillar eggs. I wake up the next morning and the eggs are gone. Who ate them?
So, how many folks in the 'meat eating is wrong' camp own cats or dogs?
Furthermore, what sanctions should be levied on panthers, wolves and other such creatures?
Most vegans don't keep cats or dogs for this reason.
People who keep pets obviously have a liking for animals to begin with. Through the companionship of their pet 'like' turns to 'love'.
And through association with their pet they soon come to see that their pet demonstrates emotions - love,friendship, tenderness, loyalty, joy, sorrow, jealousy, fear, grief and pain - physical and mental etc.
If they are spiritually minded they'll soon come to learn that it has a soul too.
Eventually the penny will drop that their animal is a microcosm of the Animal Kingdom as a whole, and then everything changes and meat-eating becomes untenable and they become vegetarian or vegan.
What though - as you raised the point - would you have them do with their animal ? Tie it to a lamp post and abandon it?
Most of the red meat in commercial cat and dog food is the leftovers from slaughtering for human consumption.
Carnivorous animals, like cats and dogs, are slaves to their nature. We have a higher nature. Man was created to be 'the sanctuary of love and justice', the guardians of Creation, not to hurt and kill.
Where we have a choice - and we do have the choice - we should be mindful of what we are inflicting upon others (or getting others to do it in 'your' name because 'you' don't have the stomach to do it 'yourself') and shun the 'fruits' of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.
Most vegans don't keep cats or dogs for this reason.
People who keep pets obviously have a liking for animals to begin with. Through the companionship of their pet 'like' turns to 'love'.
And through association with their pet they soon come to see that their pet demonstrates emotions - love,friendship, tenderness, loyalty, joy, sorrow, jealousy, fear, grief and pain - physical and mental etc.
If they are spiritually minded they'll soon come to learn that it has a soul too.
Eventually the penny will drop that their animal is a microcosm of the Animal Kingdom as a whole, and then everything changes and meat-eating becomes untenable and they become vegetarian or vegan.
What though - as you raised the point - would you have them do with their animal ? Tie it to a lamp post and abandon it?
Most of the red meat in commercial cat and dog food is the leftovers from slaughtering for human consumption.
Carnivorous animals, like cats and dogs, are slaves to their nature. We have a higher nature. Man was created to be 'the sanctuary of love and justice', the guardians of Creation, not to hurt and kill.
Where we have a choice - and we do have the choice - we should be mindful of what we are inflicting upon others (or getting others to do it in 'your' name because 'you' don't have the stomach to do it 'yourself') and shun the 'fruits' of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.
I am fairly certain that about half of the group that has gone vegetarian or vegan
Has done so in an effort to improve their health.
The other half does it so they can have a false sense of superiority over the majority who eats as an omnivore.
Most health conscious people eat whatever they thrive on better or attempt to do so.
Animals should be treated humanely, but not as humans They exist for our use as pets, beasts of burdon, or food.
Dan
Dan, so wrong! Animals are our equals and in many cases are superior to us. You have been well indoctrinated by the System. The 'experts' have done their job well in your case!
We, as a species are the monsters. The evidence is plain to see. The destruction of the planet is bringing life to a close here, and we are guilty; and we think of ourselves as intelligent!
So intelligent that we may bring an end to ALL LIFE on planet Earth.
So intelligent that we may bring an end to ALL LIFE on planet Earth.
Pathetic.
Indeed it's Pathetic that some people don't understand that in order to continue to survive we have to maintain our topsoil and the hundreds of different species it contains. The best and easiest way to maintain topsoil is to ensure that the ground is regularly grazed and animal waste is incorporated into the topsoil to maintain it's fertility.
We can't grow any crops naturally without topsoil. Going back to mixed farming where animal were an essential part of maintaining soil fertility is more sustainable than the current reliance on intensive fertilizer, pesticide and herbicide applications.
We have to understand how modern over-processed over refined carbohydrates are creating the ideal substrate for the growth of pathogenic gut flora to flourish which produce the acidosis that creates current dysbiosis for the animals (including humans) that consume it. The acidosis creates the inflammation that underlies most of the chronic diseases of western civilisation.
We don't have to turn the clock back very far. The enormous rise in obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer heart disease and dementia has occurred in my lifetime.
Reducing our reliance on refined grains, sugars HFCS and omega 6 oil consumption would reduce our caloric intake naturally and also reduce the pro-inflammatory gut flora that are adversely affecting our physical health and mental well-being, Human brains require animal fats to function optimally. Reducing High Blood sugar the key to preventing Alzheimer's We need to put the fat back into our diets and reduce the over-processed over-refined carbohydrates.
35% of global topsoil erosion is directly due to grazing, or rather overgrazing, animals for meat production.
30% of global topsoil erosion is due to deforestation. And the main driving force behind deforestation? - meat production.
An area of Amazonian rainforest the size of France has been cut down, destroyed and lost forever, to graze cattle for beef production and grow animal feed to be fed to cattle for beef production.
As for needing animal fats for 'optimal brain function'. Apart from Christ, the greatest person of the Age and the cleverest was Leonardo da Vinci, a man literally hundreds of years ahead of his time. He shunned animal foods, didn't eat meat, refused to 'permit injury to any living creature'...
35% of global topsoil erosion is directly due to grazing, or rather overgrazing, animals for meat production. .
No way that 30% of the animal products in the US are pasture raised. It's much closer to 2%, with the rest being raised CAFO.
Based on anecdotal evidence gathered from friends who own goats, I must reverse my initial response to Ted and concur; grazing animals do build topsoil, which in turn generates greater plant yields. If you don't believe me, do a search for 'permaculture' and see what you come up with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bergy
Yes, I have been indoctrinated by tens of thousands of years of human history. I assume this is the system you are referring to.
Dan
DING DING DING!!!!!!!!
Man evolved by animal consumption, pure and simple.
Furthermore, NOT feeding my dog that I rescued from 14 months of cruelty raw meat, would be cruelty, because he too, was born to eat meat.
How do you explain the experiments done with plants where the plants were wired up to a “lie detector” of sorts? Then when a person came into the room and said to the plant things like “My what a beautiful plant” and it produced a response on the detector. If someone else came in and yelled and cursed at the plant that produced a different response.
Hybrid Mode
