Tuoli: China’s Mysterious Milk Drinkers If we look at China's exception to the rule where a lot Dairy: 856.5 grams per day (almost two pounds) of dairy is consumed daily we find the cancer rate is in the lower half of Chinese cancer incidence.
It would be safer to say that in China, Dairy consumption appears to protect you from death by cancer.
You could possibly argue that the Chinese probably aren't getting the same pasteurized lifeless milk and dairy products available in western supermarkets and most dairy in China is from grass fed outdoor animals whereas our cows tend to spend longer indoors and eat more pelleted commercial food so Chinese Dairy products are probably higher in vitamin D and omega 3 and lower in omega 6.
China's mainstay crop is soya (soybeans) too. Also, China does not seem to have an overuse of pesticides, at least not that I've found. These "national" statistics do not take in any other factors. That is like saying that health cure will benefit me, but not you. Soybeans contain hormone-like substances called phytoestrogens that mimic the action of the hormone oestrogen. This consumption occurs at all levels of society. Men and boys included. The problem, in the USA, is that nearly 90% of our crop is genetically modified. It is interesting that we can't sell our crops to China.
More info needs to be taken into national comparison statistics. Take Japan as an example. They consume a huge amount of seafood. It is anticipated that they consume an average of 12.5 MG of iodine daily, probably a lot of mercury too. They have much less breast problems than any other country, especially the USA. They also consume a lot of tea, green and black.
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- Jim
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you." —Carl Gustav Jung
Kefir extracts suppress in vitro proliferation of estrogen-dependent human breast cancer cells but not normal mammary epithelial cells.
Publication: Journal of Medicinal Food, September 2007
Study summary: The antiproliferative effects of extracts of kefir, yogurt, and pasteurized cow's milk on (1) human breast cancer cells (MCF-7); and (2) normal human mammary epithelial cells (HMECs) was investigated at various doses. After six days of culture, extracts of kefir-fermented milk was found to inhibit MCF-7 cell growth in a dose-dependent manner, with 29% inhibition of proliferation at a concentration as low as 0.63%, whereas yogurt extracts began to show dose-dependent antiproliferative effects only at doses of at least 2.5%. Moreover, at a 2.5% dose, kefir extracts decreased the MCF-7 breast cancer cell numbers by 56%, while yogurt extracts decreased the breast cancer cells by only 14%. Extracts of kefir extracts had no observable antiproliferative effects in the normal HMECs, while the yogurt extracts had antiproliferative effects on HMECs at the 5% and 10% doses. Unfermented cow milk extracts increased proliferation of MCF-7 cells and HMECs at concentrations above 0.31%. Further analyses demonstrated that kefir-mediated milk fermentation resulted in an increase in peptide concentrations and a change in peptide profiles compared to yogurt or milk. The authors conclude that kefir extracts contain constituents that specifically inhibit the growth of human breast cancer cells.
Fermented milk has been shown in one study to have a protective effect against liver cancer in experimental mice. Similarly, lactobacilli strains common to fermented milk have been shown to possess inhibitory and cytotoxic activity towards human bladder cancer cells. Lactic acid bacteria from fermented milk drink also have been shown to have antiproliferative activity against colon cancer cells. However, one study found that kefir with a 3.5% fat content appeared to stimulate chemically-induced colorectal tumors in experimental rats compared to both 1.1% fat kefir and 1.1% fat sterilized milk.
Yes, and please note that most soy products taken in in Japan and China are fermented. They do not drink soymilk as we do here and not nearly as much tofu as we are lead to believe. They ferment their soy into a variety of products, but mostly a cheese called natto... which is extemely good for your health.... much is made into soy sauce, another fermented product.
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Visit: www.HealthSalon.org
Tuoli: China’s Mysterious Milk Drinkers If we look at China's exception to the rule where a lot Dairy: 856.5 grams per day (almost two pounds) of dairy is consumed daily we find the cancer rate is in the lower half of Chinese cancer incidence.
It would be safer to say that in China, Dairy consumption appears to protect you from death by cancer.
You could possibly argue that the Chinese probably aren't getting the same pasteurized lifeless milk and dairy products available in western supermarkets and most dairy in China is from grass fed outdoor animals whereas our cows tend to spend longer indoors and eat more pelleted commercial food so Chinese Dairy products are probably higher in vitamin D and omega 3 and lower in omega 6.
An interesting website. I note that the person behind it - Denise Minger - is only 23.
You say "It would be safer to say that in China dairy consumption appears to protect you from death by cancer". Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion because the same website states that while some forms of cancer decrease, dairy consumption in China increases incidence of stomach cancer, breast cancer, oesophageal cancer, brain cancer, cancer of the cervix, and deaths from cancer overall.
In any case, the source of 'dairy' Miss Minger is referring to is yaks, not the (crossbred, artificially inseminated, ill, stressed out, pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones) Holsteins Prof. Plant is talking about.
And here is a bit more of the evidence of what happens in the real world. Adolescent diet in relation to breast cancer risk among premenopausal women.
Not that I am a fan of modern heat treated highly filtered supermarket milk but it is misleading to think milk avoidance is going to prevent or improve the prognosis of all breast cancer incidence.
But we do have to understand that dairy products were not available to early humans and so our DNA would not have evolved to deal with dairy particularly in the industrialised form it's now presented.
Cultured milk products have been a traditional part of human diets and home made yoghurt and kefir using full fat milk from pastured cows is a good source of calcium.
But there is a route by which milk could be a problem particularly for people with too low vitamin D status to control autoimmunity problems developing.
And here is a bit more of the evidence of what happens in the real world. Adolescent diet in relation to breast cancer risk among premenopausal women.
Not that I am a fan of modern heat treated highly filtered supermarket milk but it is misleading to think milk avoidance is going to prevent or improve the prognosis of all breast cancer incidence.
But we do have to understand that dairy products were not available to early humans and so our DNA would not have evolved to deal with dairy particularly in the industrialised form it's now presented.
Cultured milk products have been a traditional part of human diets and home made yoghurt and kefir using full fat milk from pastured cows is a good source of calcium.
But there is a route by which milk could be a problem particularly for people with too low vitamin D status to control autoimmunity problems developing.
For the benefit of those who didn't bother to read the rense.com article (!), here are the best bits.
Para. 25: Besides I knew as a scientist that fat intake in adults has not been shown to increase risk for breast cancer in most investigations that have followed large groups of women for up to a dozen years.
Para. 35: Before I had breast cancer for the first time I had eaten a lot of dairy produce, such as skimmed milk, low fat cheese and yoghurt.
Para. 37: Recently I discovered that way back in 1989 yoghurt had been implicated in ovarian cancer. Dr Daniel Cramer of Harvard University studied hundreds of women with ovarian cancer and then had them record in detail what they normally ate...
Para. 48: When I first discussed my ideas with him (her BC specialist) he was understandably sceptical. But I understand that he now uses maps showing cancer mortality in China in his lectures and recommends a non-dairy diet to his cancer patients.
Para. 25: Besides I knew as a scientist that fat intake in adults has not been shown to increase risk for breast cancer in most investigations that have followed large groups of women for up to a dozen years.
I am not suggesting the hypothetical causal factor for Breast Cancer from dairy is it's fat content. The link I provided was to the hormone 5α-P
Quote:
Para. 35: Before I had breast cancer for the first time I had eaten a lot of dairy produce, such as skimmed milk, low fat cheese and yoghurt.
Indeed I would never suggest that skimmed milk, low fat cheese and low fat yoghurt are healthy foods. I don't believe in the cholesterol hypothesis. My partner and I only consume full fat milk, full fat cheese and 10% fat content Greek Yoghurt. If we thought full fat dairy increased breast/prostate cancer risk I would avoid dairy altogether.
Quote:
Para. 37: Recently I discovered that way back in 1989 yoghurt had been implicated in ovarian cancer. Dr Daniel Cramer of Harvard University studied hundreds of women with ovarian cancer and then had them record in detail what they normally ate..
Para. 48: When I first discussed my ideas with him (her BC specialist) he was understandably sceptical. But I understand that he now uses maps showing cancer mortality in China in his lectures and recommends a non-dairy diet to his cancer patients.
Well I've provided a link to Denise Minger's analysis of the role of dairy in China and we see those Chinese who eat HUGE amounts of dairy daily have on average a lower mortality risk than most Chinese so it's not logical to use Chinese Dairy consumption as a reason to avoid dairy.
I do think that Dairy is NOT a food humans evolved to consume.
I'm sure many people would be healthier if they avoided dairy altogether (particularly those with acne).
Those who tolerate dairy, enjoy decent butter and cheese, providing you seek out dairy from outdoor, pastured cows free from additional hormones I don't think it's the main driver of increased cancer incidence.
I am not suggesting the hypothetical causal factor for Breast Cancer from dairy is it's fat content. The link I provided was to the hormone 5α-P
Indeed I would never suggest that skimmed milk, low fat cheese and low fat yoghurt are healthy foods. I don't believe in the cholesterol hypothesis. My partner and I only consume full fat milk, full fat cheese and 10% fat content Greek Yoghurt. If we thought full fat dairy increased breast/prostate cancer risk I would avoid dairy altogether. Tisk factors for ovarian cancer are detailed here and it is possibly slightly significant but NOT definitely not a main cancer driver.
Well I've provided a link to Denise Minger's analysis of the role of dairy in China and we see those Chinese who eat HUGE amounts of dairy daily have on average a lower mortality risk than most Chinese so it's not logical to use Chinese Dairy consumption as a reason to avoid dairy.
I do think that Dairy is NOT a food humans evolved to consume.
I'm sure many people would be healthier if they avoided dairy altogether (particularly those with acne).
Those who tolerate dairy, enjoy decent butter and cheese, providing you seek out dairy from outdoor, pastured cows free from additional hormones I don't think it's the main driver of increased cancer incidence.
Firstly, the link you provided, headed with the somewhat impolite, "And here is a bit more of what happens in the real world" was a link highlighting that there was no proven connection with fat intake and BC, something Jane had clearly mentioned in para. 25, which you would have noted if you had had the courtesy to read the article.
I've nothing against Denise, she is a fine looking girl and I'm sure a nice person, but...5 years ago she was still at school and apparently on her Facebook page she described herself as "a professional sock puppeteer"...and you are quoting her as an academic source?
Of course perhaps her theory is more authoriative than Prof. Plant's years of first hand experience. Perhaps she does know more about it than Oxford, Cornell and the Chinese Academy of Preventative Medicine. Then again perhaps she doesn't. I'm sure our fellow members are intelligent enough to make their own judgements on that.
I would point out again, that she is referring in her study to yak milk, not the (Holstein crossbred) cow's milk that people here consume. I would also point out that the picture of the cheeses she uses on her website is an image library picture and is not representative of the dairy they consume in Tuoli. You'll not find much Double Gloucester on the Xinjiang steppes!
I would agree with you though on your general comments on dairy. Cow's milk is for calves!
There is also a very interesting issue re cow's milk and its large Cal:Mag imbalance (the Cal:Zinc levels are also well out of kilter) which I think will make for an interesting discussion point, though that one deserves it's own thread.
Firstly, the link you provided, headed with the somewhat impolite, "And here is a bit more of what happens in the real world" was a link highlighting that there was no proven connection with fat intake and BC, something Jane had clearly mentioned in para. 25, which you would have noted if you had had the courtesy to read the article.
There were 2 links in my reply, try the other one.
The first link was to the fact that in the real world, when you count up the amount of Total dairy, milk, carbohydrate intake, glycemic index, glycemic load, and fiber consumed during adolescence. They were not significantly related to breast cancer incidence.
If Plant's claims were true we would expect those people who consume the most dairy to have significantly higher incidence of breast cancer. The fact they don't indicates the possible significance, and there could be one which is why I included the link to hormone 5α-P but while it may be significant it's not likely to be a major factor.
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you are quoting her as an academic source?
Try reading what she actually writes. Then provide a better more up to date analysis of The China Study.
Quote:
Of course perhaps her theory is more authoriative than Prof. Plant's years of first hand experience. Perhaps she does know more about it than Oxford, Cornell and the Chinese Academy of Preventative Medicine. Then again perhaps she doesn't. I'm sure our fellow members are intelligent enough to make their own judgements on that.
It is because consensus medical opinion has done absolutely nothing to reduce cancer incidence that we do indeed have to subject everything they do to the keenest scrutiny. We have to apply common sense. That is why anyone with a brain and access to a computer can indeed go back to the original evidence, subject it to analysis and comment on the findings.
Truth does not respect position, reputation or opinion.
If we find the facts are that people eating more dairy do indeed have more Breast Cancer then that is a fact and not an opinion.
Plant is providing opinions but not these do NOT hold up in practice as facts in real life.
If they did you would be able to point to studies showing definitely that more dairy consumption increases BC incidence.
Last edited by Ted_Hutchinson; 09-13-2010 at 10:04 AM.
There were 2 links in my reply, try the other one.
The first link was to the fact that in the real world, when you count up the amount of Total dairy, milk, carbohydrate intake, glycemic index, glycemic load, and fiber consumed during adolescence. They were not significantly related to breast cancer incidence.
If Plant's claims were true we would expect those people who consume the most dairy to have significantly higher incidence of breast cancer. The fact they don't indicates the possible significance, and there could be one which is why I included the link to hormone 5α-P but while it may be significant it's not likely to be a major factor.
Try reading what she actually writes. Then provide a better more up to date analysis of The China Study.
It is because consensus medical opinion has done absolutely nothing to reduce cancer incidence that we do indeed have to subject everything they do to the keenest scrutiny. We have to apply common sense. That is why anyone with a brain and access to a computer can indeed go back to the original evidence, subject it to analysis and comment on the findings.
Truth does not respect position, reputation or opinion.
If we find the facts are that people eating more dairy do indeed have more Breast Cancer then that is a fact and not an opinion.
Plant is providing opinions but not these do NOT hold up in practice as facts in real life.
If they did you would be able to point to studies showing definitely that more dairy consumption increases BC incidence.
"Do not hold up in practice as facts in real life" I think Prof. Plant might disagree with you on that one Ted.
Dairy and breast cancer
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