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Old 09-08-2006, 05:23 PM
bifrost99 bifrost99 is offline
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Default It may be just as bad to be thin?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...349467,00.html

Well, it's modeling, but I think there are health implications, too.

Something from the article above, about BMI calculation:

Quote:
UNDERWEIGHT, NORMAL OR OBESE?

The Body Mass Index (BMI) indicates whether or not you are overweight for your height

To calculate your BMI:

1. Measure your height in metres and multiply the figure by itself, giving your height squared

2. Measure your weight in kilograms

3. Divide the weight by the height squared

For a woman measuring 1.6m (5ft 3in) and weighing 65kg (10st), the calculation would then be: 1.6 x 1.6 = 2.56. BMI would be 65 divided by 2.56 = 25.39



According to the World Health Organisation if your BMI is between 18.5 and 24.9 you are an ideal weight

BMIs can be inaccurate for people over the age of 60.
Gerry
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:01 PM
morgan33 morgan33 is offline
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Would hate to be fat or thin! Not healthy either way as far as I can see - my BMI is currently 22.5, and my 2 daughters are about the same - son is unfortunately a bit on the thin side.

My cousin's 3 children, a boy and 2 girls, ranging form 14 to 23, are all anorexic - one girl has never menstruated, despite being 21, as she has been this way since 11 years old. She is also developing osteoporosis, with a shattered ankle to prove it. The other girl has mild anorexia, but only since she developed Crohn's disease at 18.

I am so grateful I brought my kids up the way I did, with a healthy attitude to food and no vaccinations, which I am sure are linked to neurological problems affecting addictions and social interaction.
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Old 09-09-2006, 04:12 AM
EarlyBird EarlyBird is offline
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Default Cousin's children!

Dear God, Morgan33, how can children so young have
such horrible problems so young Such a pity

I'm glad the 'too skinny' models have been barred/banned.
It's way past time for some sensibility in Modeling.
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Old 09-09-2006, 05:56 AM
Jack Pine Savage Jack Pine Savage is offline
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In the, "For What it's Worth Category,"
Marilyn Monroe was a size 18.

She sure looked healthy to me!
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Old 09-09-2006, 09:30 AM
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Default Marilyn Monroe

The way today's clothes are sized, Marilyn Monroe would be a 4 or 6. She wasn't skinny. Her weight was in all the right places. Today's size 18 would be a tent on Marilyn.

Thirty years ago I was a size 8 or 10. I've gained a little weight. Now I am a size 6, although the past year I've noticed I'm having to buy size 4.
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Old 09-09-2006, 12:14 PM
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Default sizes

I have also noticed that expensive clothing is cut much larger than the cheap stuff, at least for women. I guess this makes rich women feel thinner, lol.

I have a friend who weighs exactly what I weigh, within 5 lbs. She buys expensive clothes, while I buy the cheapest I can find and only when I have to (I am on disability). I also exercise regularly and she does not exercise at all, so my weight takes up a bit less space than hers, since more of my weight is muscle.

Despite all that, she wears 4 sizes smaller in clothes than I do. Who are they trying to kid! It is very annoying when you cannot trust the sizing.

Roxie
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan33
My cousin's 3 children, a boy and 2 girls, ranging form 14 to 23, are all anorexic - one girl has never menstruated, despite being 21, as she has been this way since 11 years old. She is also developing osteoporosis, with a shattered ankle to prove it. The other girl has mild anorexia, but only since she developed Crohn's disease at 18.
morgan,

What you describe sounds like a severe zinc deficiency. Zinc is needed for healthy tissue and bones, including the GI tract. It is also found to be deficient in anorexics and bulimics.

An excess of copper can cause a zinc deficiency. Copper is involved in estrogen metabolism. Coffee, Tea and Chocolate are all high in copper. Tea has more copper than coffee, and chocolate is loaded with it.

Soils eveywhere are deficient in zinc. Zinc is found in the highest amounts in meats. Vegetables other than beans have very little zinc, but beans also have copper. Strict female vegetarians often do not menstruate.

Here is an interesting article for you on this subject:

http://www.chemicalbalance.com/zinc.htm
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Old 09-16-2006, 11:19 AM
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Hey rosie^o^, thanks for that info on zinc. Because of my tinkering with microcurrents using copper electrodes, I may just have developed an excess of copper. 'have read that DC drives the copper ions right in. Also, have observed white buffering cloth tinged green after use, so copper ions are clearly on the move during current flow.

Now, how in he... do I get it out? Considering the large number of minerals, keeping the correct balance must be pretty tricky. Any ideas?
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Old 09-16-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donee
Hey rosie^o^, thanks for that info on zinc. Because of my tinkering with microcurrents using copper electrodes, I may just have developed an excess of copper. 'have read that DC drives the copper ions right in. Also, have observed white buffering cloth tinged green after use, so copper ions are clearly on the move during current flow.

Now, how in he... do I get it out? Considering the large number of minerals, keeping the correct balance must be pretty tricky. Any ideas?
Hi-ho Donnie,

You know better than to ask me such a question, cause you know I'll tell you everything. Now you are going to be reading for a week. If you are concerned with copper excess, you may want to start by getting a hair mineral analysis to see if you have an elevated copper level, although tests aren't always accurate. This is a crucial topic for health of the prostate, and other factors. It is known that high levels of copper are found in the beta-amyloid plaques found in the brain of Alzheimers patients. I've been doing abit of research on all this, since I found out I have hemangiomas in my liver. I found that these are a form of angogenesis, which is one of the factors involved in the growth of cancer. Although my lesions are benign, I don't like the fact that they are there, period.

"It has been known for some time that metals (such as copper and iron) are involved in the development of cancer and have been shown to be important for both carcinogenesis and angiogenesis."

So I looked it all up, and found that angiogenesis, can be caused by excessive copper. I checked my copper intake, foodwise, and discovered that chocolate, especially the dark type, tea and coffee, are all high in copper. I have been binging on dark chocolate the last couple years, and am a coffee drinker. Tea has more copper than coffee, which I don't hardly drink, but I do like 4 - 5 cups of coffee a day. I then looked up what all copper excess can cause, and it seems I have alot of the symptoms of it. I didn't think I had consumed that much copper throughout my life to really cause an excess. But looking back over my life, I think I may have.

When I was born I had a problem that I could have died from. It caused me to be very weak and thin, and slow to reach all my milestones. My mother, in her "lack" of wisdom, must have thought I just needed a high calorie diet to fatten me up. So for the first five years of my life I consumed about four or five bottles a day of milk, chocolate, and honey. I also started drinking tea regularly, english style, as a young kid. And there was always chocolate available, brownies, fudge, candy bars, etc. So it appears that I may have consumed quite a bit of copper throughout my entire life.

I recently began looking into how to remove copper, and found that Zinc prevents it's absorption in the GI tract. So I take zinc with my morning coffee now, and I do feel it has had some small effect on various things. I would like to get a hair analysis done, but don't know any place in my area to go for it. I may see if I can find a lab online that I can send one to.

In the meantime, I have looked into things to chelate copper from the body. Taking extra zinc is not very effective at removing it, only preventing it's absorption. What I found is a substance called "tetrathiomolybdate", which is a compound of sulphur and the trace mineral molybdenum. It can only be obtained by prescription from a compounding pharmacist. However, there are chemical supply houses that sell it for chemistry purposes. It is said to be very effective at removing copper from the body.

Molybdenum & Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate

What is molybdenum? Molybdenum is an essential trace mineral that is needed for the proper function of certain enzyme-dependent processes, including the metabolism of iron. Some increased urinary excretion of copper will occur with daily molybdenum consumption of up to 10 - 15 mg (10,000 - 15,000 mcg) per day,(18) but intake of higher doses has produced clinical evidence of gout-like symptoms, such as joint pain and swelling.(19)(20) A combination of sulfur and molybdenum is required to form a metallothionein complex to effectively bind copper for excretion. This reaction does not occur naturally in the human body. Thus, molybdenum (as ammonium tetramolybdate) is not an effective copper chelator by itself.

What is TM? Ammonium tetra[thio]molybdate (TM) is a complex of sulfur and molybdenum designed as a fast-acting compound to quickly lower copper levels by oral chelation.

"Ammonia" is a salt which increases body absorption and known as "ammonium" when an extra hyrodgen atom is added to the molecule.

"Tetrathiomolybdate" is a complex word -- tetra-thio-molybdate.

"Molybdate" is the chemical compound of oxygen with the copper binding mineral molybdenum. (The "-ate" suffix indicates oxygen atoms are part of the molecule.)

"thio-" is the sulfur which aids the body's elimination of molybdate after it has bonded with copper.

"Tetra-" is four, as there are four sulfur atoms in one tetrathiomlybdate molecule.

Ammonium tetrathiomolybdate (TM) is a complex of sulfur and molybdenum designed as a fast-acting compound to quickly lower copper levels by oral chelation. This compound may be the world's safest and most potent anti-copper agent. It is extremely well tolerated, with few side effects, and TM is particularly useful to patients who wish to avoid the potential adverse reactions to the standard chelating agents, penicillamine and trientine.(21)

How does TM work? In his trials, Dr. Brewer wants to determine if copper deficiency is a feasible modality to stop cancer's growth by inhibiting tumor neovascularization. Dr. Brewer found that TM could be safely administered to his copper-reduction therapy patients in daily doses of 120 mg (six capsules of 20 mg each), at least ten times the maximum safe dosage of molybdenum alone. TM lowers the body's copper level by chelating (binding to) the copper and protein, making a stable compound that cannot be used by the tumor cells or any part of the body. Taken at mealtime, TM prevents the body from processing and absorbing the copper in food as well as the copper normally found in saliva and gastric secretions. When taken between meals separated from any food by at least two hours, TM is even more effective. (Capsules taken in the middle of the night if one awakens to go to the bathroom seems to be the most effective in lowering copper levels.) On a relatively empty stomach, TM is absorbed into the blood and binds copper to serum albumin, a protein in blood. The TM-protein-copper complex does not interact with other biological molecules and is excreted.(22)

How can TM be obtained? TM has been registered under the FDA's Orphan Drug Act (23) since 1994. The University of Michigan claims to be filing a new-use patent for TM in the treatment of cancer and other diseases that rely on angiogenesis.(24) The University of Michigan states that full-scale toxicity studies are required before TM can be made available to large numbers of people, and this would be a necessary step for the FDA to approve TM as a drug suitable for any therapy. According to the University of Michigan, the National Cancer Institute has accepted them into a program designed to speed access to new medications. Verification is impossible as the FDA considers all pending applications as confidential.

At the University of Michigan, TM is currently available only through their clinical research programs.(25) Dr. Brewer's source for TM is Sigma-Aldrich, Inc., in Milwaukee where they specifically refine the product for human consumption. Dr. Brewer further tests the product for freshness by spectrum analyses and biological assays. Apparently, any pharmaceutical TM purchased from Sigma-Aldrich outside of the University of Michigan's control with Dr. Brewer must be initiated by the patient's doctor, approved as patient specific through FDA, purchased in bulk, and encapsulated at a compounding pharmacy.(26) After a lot of customer prescreening, Sigma-Aldrich has sold their technical grade of TM in powder form which is guaranteed pure only up to 99.97%. Technical grades are not always pure enough for human ingestion as they can possibly contain toxic contaminants. However, there are other sources available for obtaining TM.

The FDA Modernization Act of 1997 (27) changed availability of many drugs which have not been approved. TM is not a common substance, and Sigma-Aldrich is not the only source. Several compounding pharmacists (28) have found other companies to provide it. Only a doctor's prescription is required, and there is no requirement for patient specific FDA approval.

Every day more compounding pharmacists are becoming familiar with TM as they start supplying it to their customers, usually by mail order prescription. We have listed known suppliers in Appendix VI

In most locations, compounding pharmacists require a doctor's order for TM, but the prescription does not have to be from an oncologist. The usual price is $2.25 per capsule. Since the material is very sensitive needing an oxygen-free environment prior to the arduous compounding process, any offering of "cut rate" TM would be very suspicious. Dr. Brewer found that TM retained 90% of its potency in capsules for only 8 weeks before the exposure to oxygen causes it to slowly degrade (oxygen replaces the sulfur in the molecule rendering it inactive).(29)

Chapter II: http://george-eby-research.com/html/anti_ang.html

Cancer clinic in Denmark using TM:

http://www.humlegaarden.dk/Cancer/Treatments/TM.html

Copper elimination info:

http://www.arltma.com/CopperElimNews.htm

http://www.infiltec.com/anticopper/

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/co...y_syndrome.htm

Another option to remove copper:

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/gb3.htm

One chemical supply house that sells TM:

http://www.gfschemicals.com/chemicals/gfschem-5093.asp

Another interesting substance that has found be very effective at chelating copper and removing it from the body, is an old banned antibiotic called clioquinol. It is still used in some countries, and is now being used in cancer studies with great results. It has also been found to be very effective at removing the beta amyloid lesions in AZ patients brains.

Anticancer Activity of the Antibiotic Clioquinol

It has been known for some time that metals (such as copper and iron) are involved in the development of cancer and have been shown to be important for both carcinogenesis (1–3) and angiogenesis (4). Metal chelators such as desferrioxamine, an iron chelator (5), and tetrathiomolybdate, a copper chelator (6), have been shown to suppress tumor growth, metastases, and angiogenesis and are currently being investigated in clinical trials (5, 7, 8). Chelation of metals may have antitumor effects via several different intracellular mechanisms. Iron chelators, for example, have been shown to induce apoptosis through a p53-independent pathway (9) and by the inhibition of N-myc expression (10), whereas copper chelators induce apoptosis of tumor cells through the inhibition of the NFB signaling cascade (11).

Clioquinol (5-chloro-7-iodo-8-hydroxyquinoline) is a chelator of copper, zinc, and iron. It was first prepared in Germany in the early part of the last century (12) and was widely used as an antibiotic for the treatment of diarrhea and skin infection. In the 1970s, it was linked to an outbreak of subacute myelo-optic neuropathy in Japan (13) and was banned in many countries. Subsequent epidemiologic analysis questioned the link between subacute myelo-optic neuropathy and clioquinol (14) and it remains available in several countries, including Canada, where it is sold in a topical preparation. In 2001, the metal-binding properties of clioquinol led to its use in a mouse model of Alzheimer's disease in which it was shown to reduce or prevent the formation of amyloid plaques in the brain (15). It was also shown to have efficacy in an animal model of Parkinson's disease (16). Clioquinol was then moved into clinical trials for patients with Alzheimer's disease. It proved nontoxic in a small Swedish trial (17) involving 20 patients. A larger trial conducted in Australia involved 36 patients who received the drug orally in increasing doses over a 10-month period. The study, reported at the end of 2003, showed (1) no toxicity in any patients, (2) clinical benefit in some patients, and (3) trough steady-state blood levels of 25 µmol/L at the highest dose level (18).

Superoxide dismutase-1 (SOD1) is an important enzymatic defense against oxidative stress that has been shown to be a potentially useful target for anticancer therapy (19). Because SOD1 uses both copper and zinc as cofactors, we postulated that clioquinol might have antitumor activity by virtue of chelating one or both of these metals. As reported here, we found that clioquinol exhibits antitumor activity in vitro and in vivo, but does not seem to do so because of SOD1 inhibition or simple metal chelation. Instead, our studies suggest the mechanism of action of clioquinol is due to its ability to act as a transition metal ionophore, a class of compounds not previously considered as potential anticancer agents.

Full text: http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cg...full/65/8/3389

More on this stuff:

http://www.textmed.com/chemical/clioquinol-articles.htm

Note to self... Must locate a source for this Clioquinol. I bypass doctors and pharmacists as much as possible. :wink:
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Old 09-16-2006, 02:38 PM
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Thanks for all that good info.

Here is something you can look at that contains info on some more mundane things you can do while you are trying to find the potent stuff.

http://www.melissadianesmith.com/Art...rOverLoad.html

I immediately started on some pantothenic acid which is supposed to give my adrenals a boost. A small thing, but a start.
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:55 AM
bifrost99 bifrost99 is offline
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Default Copper is still needed

I hope we don't get to the other extreme of avoiding copper.

Copper deficiency is cause of fatal aneurysms in turkeys. This has been known for decades. In humans, aneurysms are still a disease of unknown cause. I wouldn't be surprised if human aneurysms are the result of copper deficiency, too.

Gerry
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:53 AM
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Gerry wrote:

"I hope we don't get to the other extreme of avoiding copper."

Yes, right. But in my own situation copper is impossible to avoid.

Always glad to get your input, Gerry.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifrost99
I hope we don't get to the other extreme of avoiding copper.

Gerry
Agreed. I won't be avoiding all copper, just keeping it to a minimum. I'll still be drinking my coffee, and getting copper from other foods. But chocolate is off my list.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:33 AM
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Don,

Thanks for that link, more interesting info. I have almost all the symptoms and risk factors. Years ago, I had full blown adrenal exhaustion, and was damn near dead, til my doctor put me on 6 weeks of intravenous vitamins and minerals, along with a B12 shot and ACTH. I also have high estrogen, and took the pill for several years. The odd part is the fact that people with high copper crave foods that are high in it, like chocolate, nuts and avocados. I crave all three. And now I'm uspet to find out that avocados are high in copper. I love them most of all, way more than chocolate.

I also am glad to see that Gittleman quoted a psychologist in my area on this subject. What really got me started searching this subject in greater depth, was finding out that my neice has a serious emotional disorder, that is effecting alot of young girls these days, and she thinks she will commit suicide. Upon looking up her specific problem, I found that it can be caused by high copper levels.

I will give my sister that guys name to see if she can get her to see him. Somebody needs to test that girl, rather than just counsel her. And my sister is in denial about the whole issue. She says the girl is just sensitive. But if you read that one link I posted, high copper people are very sensitive. So it all fits. And now the poor girl has an ovarian cyst, so they put her on the birth control pill to try to shrink it. Not good in this case.
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:33 PM
bifrost99 bifrost99 is offline
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I just did a quick look about copper, and I find this one discussing the role of the mineral, deficiency and excess:

http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copper.html

(Lots of links, too.)

Strangely, the Merck Manual says both excess and deficiency are rare.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec12/ch155/ch155c.html

If aneurysms are indeed due (partly or completely) to copper deficiency, as well as rheumatoid arthritis and herniated disks as mentioned in the web page above, then I would say it is quite common.

And if avocados, nuts, chocolate and coffee and the conditions of Donee and shapshftr are not uncommon, then copper excess would be quite common, too.

Maybe it's just rare to associate nutrients with disease?

I noticed, too, that excess copper is supposedly excreted in the bile, so maybe fat diets, which cause bile secretion, will be a way to hasten copper secretion. But that's just my thinking. 8)

Gerry
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